Low mileage for success?

The ideal program is low-mileage.

By low mileage, if you mean doing only 10-15 mpw, an emphatic "NO" in my opinion.

They peak after only 3 weeks of workouts? What kind of workouts are they running, and what kind of progression are you giving them??

The kids definitely need to build a base before they get to actual workouts, particularly if they are new. As heat is an issue, you might consider two options: starting base work earlier in the summer, and/or doing doubles (run in the morning before it gets too warm, run in the evening after it's started to cool).

Obviously I know more mileage generally equates to better times, but that's only if the body is prepared for the miles ran. Many kids start the season never having ran a mile in their life, so running 10-15 miles a week is an accomplishment. Obviously I would love to have these kids out during the summer getting in shape, but that's not the case for most of them. Being able to do doubles or changing the workout timing is likewise difficult.

The workouts will be something like 2-5x1000 at their 3 mile race pace, depending on their fitness level. Recovery is equal to the length of the rep. The progression of quality workouts, then, starts at a low number of reps for the newer/weaker runners.

Why aren't YOU--the coach--holding Summer Running practice?

You could recruit students in the spring, then holding Summer Running practice during the summer. Run 5-6 days a week. THIS would give the kids the base to be successful in the fall.

(Check to see if your high school league allows you to meet with the kids in the summer. If not, then you have team captains in charge with holding practice at the park.)

When you--the coach--set-up expectations, the student-athlete will respond. If this means everyone comes to Summer Running, then they will show up. Those who don't will see real fast (once the season begins) the importance of coming to practice...even if it's Summer Running.

Cross country is won in the SUMMER, not the fall!

Doing mainly speed work with little to no base phase will result in an early peak.

I've done almost exactly what you've proposed myself during both XC and track. Both occasions, I would do excessive speedwork (like 4x1000m, 6x800m) 3-4 times a week and I would peak before the season even began or a few weeks into the season.

And the worst part is, it's before any major races.

SpanishLinguistics wrote:

Doing mainly speed work with little to no base phase will result in an early peak.

I've done almost exactly what you've proposed myself during both XC and track. Both occasions, I would do excessive speedwork (like 4x1000m, 6x800m) 3-4 times a week and I would peak before the season even began or a few weeks into the season.

And the worst part is, it's before any major races.

even ***without***

SUMMER RUNNING, ANYONE? wrote:

Why aren't YOU--the coach--holding Summer Running practice?

You could recruit students in the spring, then holding Summer Running practice during the summer. Run 5-6 days a week. THIS would give the kids the base to be successful in the fall.

(Check to see if your high school league allows you to meet with the kids in the summer. If not, then you have team captains in charge with holding practice at the park.)

When you--the coach--set-up expectations, the student-athlete will respond. If this means everyone comes to Summer Running, then they will show up. Those who don't will see real fast (once the season begins) the importance of coming to practice...even if it's Summer Running.

Cross country is won in the SUMMER, not the fall!

This. Trying to get kids fast on what is already a short season and completely ignoring the summer is a fool's errand.

SUMMER RUNNING, ANYONE? wrote:

Why aren't YOU--the coach--holding Summer Running practice?

You could recruit students in the spring, then holding Summer Running practice during the summer. Run 5-6 days a week. THIS would give the kids the base to be successful in the fall.

(Check to see if your high school league allows you to meet with the kids in the summer. If not, then you have team captains in charge with holding practice at the park.)

When you--the coach--set-up expectations, the student-athlete will respond. If this means everyone comes to Summer Running, then they will show up. Those who don't will see real fast (once the season begins) the importance of coming to practice...even if it's Summer Running.

Cross country is won in the SUMMER, not the fall!

I shouldn't be coaching if I didn't already know this. I do have summer practices, 5 days a week. I've had larger numbers in the past attend these practices, but the past few years kids don't come out until school starts. I wish this wasn't the case, I've busted my ass to do differently, but I guess most of the kids find better things to do during the summer in Hawaii instead of run. Go figure.

Let me be more specific about how I plan to coach these new kids and see if this is similar to how some of you approach coaching your new runners. I shouldn't have said I'm wanting to coach them to run low mileage. I want to build them to at least 20 miles a week, but hold off on race specific training until the last 3 weeks of the season. Instead, on a Monday after a Saturday meet they will just run like mile then lift weights, Tuesday will be tempo/Indian Run/hill repeats, Wednesday 3 miles or pool workout, Thursday 5-6 mile run, Friday mile and weights (upper body only), Saturday race.

My main concern is switching from incorporating race specific training into the routine earlier on to waiting until the last 3 weeks of the season to do so.

People still do Indian Runs?

Running 'like a mile' does jack sh!t for you.

There is no possible way you can have a good program based off of

M - 1 mile

T - Tempo/Interval (presumably short, like everything else)

W - 3 miles or 0 miles

R - 5-6 mile

F - 1 mile

S - Race (3)

S - N/A

>20 miles is not going to work on kids unwilling to work hard. Any kids you do get with potential will either quit or disregard your bad coaching and run themselves.

Bring Mondays up to 6-8 miles (long run, for now),

Tuesday 4 miles easy,

Wednesdays Tempo (20 mins)/Interval day (5x1000) with 2 mile warmup,

Thursday 5 miles easy,

Friday 3 miles easy

Saturday - 3 miles race + 1-2 warmup miles

That is 10 miles more, do this for a couple weeks, then add to the long run, and make easy days a mile more and do that for a few weeks, then ramp up tempo days.

Did you miss the part where I specifically was referring to new kids? Not going to be asking them to run 8 miles, will be a struggle to get them to do the 5-6 miles by week 6. The days with only a mile of running was meant to be for recovery and to keep them fresh, focusing on the harder days to get a better effort.

I agree that you don't bump them up to 6-8 miles in one day right away. But realize what you're talking about isn't really varsity runners (they may be in your top X, but it's not like they're going to be able to get good training).

My advice: focus first on working them up to 3 miles a day (no variation). Once they can manage that, progressively add some extra miles 2-3 days a week (e.g., 3 miles on Monday, 4 miles on Tuesday, 3 miles on Wednesday, 5 miles on Thursday, 3 miles on Friday, race on Saturday -- that's 21 miles a week, including a 3 mile race on Saturday). After they can manage 20-25 miles/week without problems, add in some basic workouts - one day for speed development (not 200m repeats or anything like that... I mean pure speed/sprint work, 30-60m or 4-8s with FULL REST), one day for fartlek or the like, and once they can handle those two workouts a week add in a tempo run.

So, eventually, it might look something like this:

Monday 3 miles + 6x60m.

Tuesday 4 miles

Wednesday 3 miles tempo or fartlek (pref. fartlek for newer runners)

Thursday 5-6 miles

Friday 3 miles

Saturday Race

Having them run 1 mile on Monday and 1 mile on Friday isn't going to do anything for them, and having them possibly skip a run on Wednesday isn't doing them any favors, either. Especially when the real problem seems to be that they don't want to train in the first place. You're much better off having them do the minimum that actually provides some benefit (re: run for at least 20-30 minutes each time out) than to have four rest days, an tempo/interval workout, a long run and a race. You can't pool all your running into one or two days a week and expect something decent to come of it.

But understand, they aren't going to be very good in cross country - that's more of a novice 800m type training, not 5k over hill and dale. You'll have to get them to understand that if they want to be better, they have to run in the summer, so that they'll be able to do more in the fall, and actually compete closer to their ability.

OP,

How many kids did you have running last year?

How many kids showed up at your summer practices regularly?

Also, what are your 5 top frosh, soph, jr, and senior 5k (or 3mile) times?

I had 35 kids out last year. My top frosh were running around 1830 for 3 miles, down to my best runner, a junior, running high 17s. Hawaii's not a hotbed of running talent. I'm getting a max of about 6 kids out during the summer right now.

The training I've used in previous years is more like you all have suggested. I am not new at this. I was just thinking of exploring other approaches to training and was curious if anyone else had tried something similar.

The coach at our high school won't let the kids who don't run over the summer run meets in September. That way they have a good six week block of training before their first meet. Without meets and/or overly hard workouts to recover from, they can get to 30+ mpw in say the 3rd week and have time to get used to it before they race. They still have time to run 3 races and see what XC is all about. Occasionally, one of them runs well enough to make the top 7. Last years best non-summer running freshman ran 9:3X for 3200m in the spring so he really learned his lesson.

I have a lot of the same problems you are describing, however I'm still having decent luck getting kids to run during the summer. When I recruit new kids who've never played another sport, getting them to 10-15 mpw is a pretty big accomplishment. Unfortunately, along the way, a number of them develop crappy little lower leg injuries (knee, calf, shin...that type of stuff). If I have them run less, they could avoid the injuries, but would not progress to being any good.

My solution for these newbies (important caveat, I'm going to fully implement this for the first time this year) is as follows.

1. Establish a baseline for what the kids are capable of doing by having them run a short time trial (probably a mile for the newbies).

2. Start every practice with a small amount of running (800m-1 mile)

3. Stage vigorous, general athletic conditioning for the next 20-30 min. (Push up, bear crawl, circuit training, etc).

4. Finish with a small amount of running.

What I just described above would constitute our "quality" days for the early part of the season. The other days would be made up of just easy running where the kids focus on running continuously for longer and longer periods of time.

However, saying "just have the kids do easy running" is also a bit of a trap for coaches of total newbies. For many kids, anything faster than walking pace is hard, so getting them to simply run for 20-30 minutes is not as easy as saying "ok, just run easy, keep it conversational...." So, my solution for those most athletically deficient is to mix walking in with their easy running.

I've had a couple of standards over the last couple of years. Probably the most important one of these is that kids cannot compete in a race until they show me that they can run 20 minutes without stopping. Many kids struggle with this, and despite the fact that we start practice almost 4 weeks before the first meet, do not get to compete in the first meet. I am hoping that by including more non running fitness type activities for the very low level kids, that they will actually progress faster than they would with just running.

HI Coach, keep this thread going. I will keep posting my results as well. I'll even put up sample training for my newbies (a topic which is almost completely ignored on these forums).

In the late 70s, to be on the XC team at my middle school as a 6th grader you had to be able to run without stopping for 30 min.