neither Lagat, nor El G ever ran an official 800m fast. But El G did run around 1:46 at the end of a 1500, and he was capable of going out in 53 in a 1500 without dying. Moreover, he was reputed to have run 1:42 in training. He also ran 7:23 and sub 12:50, so it seems that his endurance was not as good as it would need to be for a relatively slow 400m runner to run 3:26 with only 1:43. For that reason, I think that he could run 47 flat or slightly better in the 400.
Ben L Wrong wrote:
I think he's (or he'll be) in 3:28 flat form this year.
Ventolin, what do you think?
Is this ventolin asking ventolin what he thinks? Because no one really cares what he thinks, even his dad.
ventolin^3 wrote:
the best possible line for the somali
Can we ban this as$-hole?
ventolin^3 - He is from Djibouti!
jjjjjjjjjj wrote:
neither Lagat, nor El G ever ran an official 800m fast. But El G did run around 1:46 at the end of a 1500, and he was capable of going out in 53 in a 1500 without dying. Moreover, he was reputed to have run 1:42 in training. He also ran 7:23 and sub 12:50, so it seems that his endurance was not as good as it would need to be for a relatively slow 400m runner to run 3:26 with only 1:43. For that reason, I think that he could run 47 flat or slightly better in the 400.
EL G ran a 1:46.9 last 800 in a 1500, which is nearer 1:47 than 1:46, and Lagat couldn't have been much slower. Lagat has run several circuit 800s and never broken 1:46 either. That's not to say he couldn't, but it is 'strange' how both of them avoided or didn't excel in the 2 lap event!
A 7:23 3000m is a far better performance than the 1:44 that his coach said he had run for 800 in training. And the pacing wasn't great in that 3K pr of his.
He certainly was an endurance based miler and his over distance ability was considerably stronger than his under distance.
A sub 47 400 is good for an elite 800 runner. Too many people think they all run 45/46. This is exceptional. I doubt very much if Symmonds could have run any faster than 46 high last year or at his peak of 2012, and he has run sub 1:43.
I'd give EL G 47.7 absolute max.
i like how we need ventolin to tell us that a guy who's run 3:30 at least once in both 2012 and 2014 plus 3:47 for the mile (3:30eq) could run 3:29. no shit
Peer Mediator wrote:
He certainly was an endurance based miler and his over distance ability was considerably stronger than his under distance.
Based on what? He never ran an 800m or a 5000m during peak shape.
isio wrote:
Peer Mediator wrote:He certainly was an endurance based miler and his over distance ability was considerably stronger than his under distance.
Based on what? He never ran an 800m or a 5000m during peak shape.
based on common sense and not being a moron
Mo ran 3:28 weeks from a 5000, 10,000 double. it would be stupid to think he could not run 3:26 if he focused on the 1500. But I forgot, Sleazy Sal forbids him from doing something stupid like that again. Too suspicious.
Peer Mediator wrote:EL G ran a 1:46.9 last 800 in a 1500, which is nearer 1:47 than 1:46
& hicham ran it all solo, which makes it much more impressive than a drafted-along 1'46.9
Lagat has run several circuit 800s and never broken 1:46 either. That's not to say he couldn't, but it is 'strange' how both of them avoided or didn't excel in the 2 lap event!
you have been told many, many times :
- bernie never ran a 800 in his peak year of '01, so no clue about his 800 ability at his peak
- bernie ran a 1'46.9 in walnut in april in his 3'27 year of '04
that is so early in season it can be regarded as no more than a leg-stretching exercise
- his 800pb was 1'46.00 in '03 when his sb was 3'30.55 & he got well hammered by hicham in 3'29.13 - not even a close race
he came 8th in 1'46.00 in a poor race won in 1'44.7
to show how bad race was, bungei came only 2nd in 1'44.7, losing by 0.02s when previous month he had run 1'42.52 !!!
bernie was the proverbial mile away from his peak-3'26+ shape in a poor 800 race by all
A 7:23 3000m is a far better performance than the 1:44 that his coach said he had run for 800 in training. And the pacing wasn't great in that 3K pr of his.
He certainly was an endurance based miler and his over distance ability was considerably stronger than his under distance
you keep forgetting, baala, a 2nd rate hicham clone was also a pure 1500 trainer, who ran 1'43.1 off 1500 training !!!
baala had no interest in 800 upto that race & left it until last race of season to enter an elite 800 & smashed his earlier season 1'45.92pb down to 1'43.1 !!!
baala's best 1500 upto then was 3'31.97
if a 2nd rate hicham clone coud go 1'43.1 off pure 1500 training, it is damn likely hicham couda gone lot quicker for 800 than 1'43.1 off his pure 1500 training
A sub 47 400 is good for an elite 800 runner. Too many people think they all run 45/46. This is exceptional. I doubt very much if Symmonds could have run any faster than 46 high last year or at his peak of 2012, and he has run sub 1:43
nick hs said he believed he was capable of 46-mid in late season of '12 - implying london
I'd give EL G 47.7 absolute max
this needs to be re-assessed after more analysis
his coach said 48+ / 1'44-high in training
he estimates the 800 couda been 1'43-low in an obviously, ideal rested race, but then again, worth noting his coach has never trained a super-fast 1'41/1'42 guy so he he is speculating about 800 ability
his coach makes no comment about the 48+ in a fully rested, ideal race, presumably only because interlocutor forgot to ask him
the 48+ has to be worth quicker in a fully rested, ideal race as the 800 was
the combos of 400/800 which offer 3'25-mid/high are infinite, but common-sense & impossibility of running 3'26 off 47-high suggest hicham's speed has to be considered quicker than this - somewhere in 47-flat/low
guy's blasting 53.2 in a 3'26.00 can't be 47-high guys
the prelim estimates for hicham make far more sense with 47-flat/low ->
47.25 / 1'42.50 -> 3'25.79
47.25 / 1'42.40 -> 3'25.43
47.00 / 1'42.25 -> 3'25.75
47.00 / 1'42.20 -> 3'25.57
logic points to hicham being in something like 1'42-low shape in his 3'26wr shape
now we have example of nijel of blasting 1'41.73 off 1'47 year before, which shows what elite guys can run when they really put 100% into an 800, so i have absolute no doubt above for hicham & bernie/noah wouda been quicker as neither had no 2k/3k worth bothering with, so likely running 3'26/3'43 off better speed than hicham - noah very, very likely to have been capable of 1'41-high & bernie probably close behind
jjjjjjjjjj wrote:neither Lagat, nor El G ever ran an official 800m fast. But El G did run around 1:46 at the end of a 1500, and he was capable of going out in 53 in a 1500 without dying. Moreover, he was reputed to have run 1:42 in training. He also ran 7:23 and sub 12:50, so it seems that his endurance was not as good as it would need to be for a relatively slow 400m runner to run 3:26 with only 1:43. For that reason, I think that he could run 47 flat or slightly better in the 400.
yes
on re-assessment of some material, including his coach's brief comments, your 47-flat supposition looks reasonable
Ventolin, your comments on this thread illustrate exactly what I mean about you contradicting yourself. Someone actually agrees with your initial comment in offering a 400/800 ability for EL G, and then you criticise them for being wrong and offer a 'new' set of figures. This is something you do often and ignore when people point it out to you.
This is what you said on Page 1~
__________________________________________________________________________
"interesting to note, hicham may have had no better than same 1'43-flat speed ( but that does need more info which we never seem to get ) but likely wouda run it off much slower 400 ability, meaning vastly superior endurance
47.75 -> 3'25.88 , 3'42.42
it is these apparently small differences which manifest as huge differences at 1500 - in this case hicham having same 800 ability as the somali but having to do it off ~ 1s slower 400 ability"
and further on ~
"point was that his endurance "factor" is not existent in today's guys & that may be simply because hicham knew his speed limitations & worked far more on endurance than current guys who eschew endurance to more speed
( asbel & this guy do 1500/800 & not 1500/3k )
that limited speed woud still likely have manifested it self as ~ 1'43-flat back in '98 which is impressive"
___________________________________________________________________________
Are you or are you not stating here that EL G was likely 47.75/1:43.0 in 1998 when he broke the 1500 record and at a career peak??
Yes, you cautiously qualify the above with the comment, 'but that does need more info which we never seem to get.' But unless you have been given any additional info in the intervening hours that contradicts this, you then come up with a completely different scenario to criticise posters who are actually agreeing with you!
This is what you write on P.2 on the same topic~
"his coach said 48+ / 1'44-high in training
he estimates the 800 couda been 1'43-low in an obviously, ideal rested race, but then again, worth noting his coach has never trained a super-fast 1'41/1'42 guy so he he is speculating about 800 ability
his coach makes no comment about the 48+ in a fully rested, ideal race, presumably only because interlocutor forgot to ask him
the 48+ has to be worth quicker in a fully rested, ideal race as the 800 was
the combos of 400/800 which offer 3'25-mid/high are infinite, but common-sense & impossibility of running 3'26 off 47-high suggest hicham's speed has to be considered quicker than this - somewhere in 47-flat/low
guy's blasting 53.2 in a 3'26.00 can't be 47-high guys
the prelim estimates for hicham make far more sense with 47-flat/low ->
47.25 / 1'42.50 -> 3'25.79
47.25 / 1'42.40 -> 3'25.43
47.00 / 1'42.25 -> 3'25.75
47.00 / 1'42.20 -> 3'25.57
logic points to hicham being in something like 1'42-low shape in his 3'26wr shape"
___________________________________________________________________________
Within the space of a few hours, and using so called 'evidence/analysis' that was available to you a few hours earlier when you posted your initial thoughts, you have changed EL G from a 47 high/1:43 flat athlete to a 47.0/1:42 low one. That is quite some change. And it's based on what?
Some nonsense about his coach not knowing what a 1:41/1:42 athlete look like and a comparison with Baala, who not only was probably doping as well, but is a different person with a different physiology. For all we know he may have had superior basic speed to EL G, but couldn't maintain his projected endurance based on that past about 1200m. We don't know. Just because 2 athletes have similar 400 and 800 pbs, it doesn't mean they therefore have the same 1500 ability.
The most crucial piece of evidence is what his coach states, that he could run 48 and 1:44 in training. Yet you take this and 'spin' it into 47 flat and 1:42 low. I'd suggest that his true potential in a rested well paced race at his peak would lie somewhere in between.
So, basically there are 2 questions here.
1). Can you see the contradiction in your comments?
2). Do you do this on purpose just to be contrary and to demean other posters who you simply don't like?
whatthewhat? wrote:
Mo ran 3:28 weeks from a 5000, 10,000 double. it would be stupid to think he could not run 3:26 if he focused on the 1500. But I forgot, Sleazy Sal forbids him from doing something stupid like that again. Too suspicious.
This! The fact that the apparent purest talent ever over 1500 is not running another 1500, let alone focusing on the 1500, is the nail in the coffin to the notion that Mo is doing these things on training alone. I bet Al Sal is regretting ever saying that it takes dope to run as fast as some of his runners are running now.
Next El G? wrote:
That 3:47 was a bit of an eye opener for me. I wouldn't be surprised with 3:44 or 3:27 high this year and a world record attempt in 2015-2018
tony the tiger wrote:
Souliman is very talented and has balls but he is not consistent he has great coach tho probably the best middle distance runner in the world
GoldenMiles wrote:
Between him, Kiprop, and Kiplagat (and Dibaba and Aregawi in the women's field), I'd love to see at least one mid-distance record go down this year. However, I just don't think it'll happen, unless someone runs a 1000M time trial or something. 3.26.00 is insane, with the 3:43 being almost as crazy.
reed wrote:
3:47.32 is equal to 3:30.48, which is just the 4th fastest 1500m run this year behind Kiprop, Kiplagat, and Makhloufi.
hardly worth WR talks
All very true, but since there are no championships this summer, it should be exciting and there's at least a minor possibility of a fast 1500m race being put on, paced well and athletes thriving in it. Definitely agree, world record is not going down. But, his 3:47 mile is very impressive, not because of what it converts to but because it was a Prefontaine meet record and Souleiman seemed to celebrate a bit. I think in an excellent, successful fast race, someone may go sub 3:28
Peer Mediator wrote:Ventolin, your comments on this thread illustrate exactly what I mean about you contradicting yourself. Someone actually agrees with your initial comment in offering a 400/800 ability for EL G, and then you criticise them for being wrong and offer a 'new' set of figures. This is something you do often and ignore when people point it out to you
no
once again you fail to grasp that nothing is ever written in stone & any extra bit of new research or re-evaluation of known evidence can change opinions
the doubt is that that it seems virtually impossible for a guy who can run 3'26.0 with a 53.2 finish can only have 47-high/1'43-flat speed
even with small possibility of doping, this scenario is impossible
doping makes you faster at all distances, not just 1500
Are you or are you not stating here that EL G was likely 47.75/1:43.0 in 1998 when he broke the 1500 record and at a career peak??
a view i have never been happy about but influenced by his coach's words
a coach who woudn't have a clue what workouts are that of a 1'41/1'42 guy & went for 1'43-low estimate
the moroccan record now is laloo's 1'43.25, still no 1'42+ guy to go on for 'roccan coaches
the record in hicham's day was haida's 1'43.50
i very much doubt hicham's coach knew what hicham's absolute 800 limit was as he'd never got any prior 1'41/1'42 guys workouts to compare with
Yes, you cautiously qualify the above with the comment, 'but that does need more info which we never seem to get.' But unless you have been given any additional info in the intervening hours that contradicts this, you then come up with a completely different scenario to criticise posters who are actually agreeing with you!
again you don't think
i looked again at his coach's comments & thought more about them
to show how clueless some of his comments were, he thought hicham couda gone 12'30, presumably meaning more like a threat to 5kwr & maybe 12'35
this is nonsense
if he is completely wrong about hicham's 5k potential, it is likely he wasn't very clued up on his 800 either
Within the space of a few hours, and using so called 'evidence/analysis' that was available to you a few hours earlier when you posted your initial thoughts, you have changed EL G from a 47 high/1:43 flat athlete to a 47.0/1:42 low one. That is quite some change. And it's based on what?
can't you read ???
i said looking more closely at coach's comments, the fact that a 2nd-rate hicham clone in baala coud run 1'43.1 off 3'31.9 training & the absurdity of a guy running so damn fast over 1500 at 3'26.0 & being slower over 800 than nobodies like konchellah, elliot, boaz, ndururi, etc who have all gone 1'42+
Some nonsense about his coach not knowing what a 1:41/1:42 athlete look like and a comparison
fool
the coach also said 12'30
that shoud tell you already coach really doesn't have a clue about his limits
with Baala, who not only was probably doping as well, but is a different person with a different physiology.
nonsense
baala is an arab
his physiology is likely to be very similar to hicham's as all these guys have traditionally been better at 1500 than 800
if he coud run 1'43.1 off 3'31.9 training, it's damn likely hicham wouda demolished 1'43.1
For all we know he may have had superior basic speed to EL G
possible, but i highly doubt it was much at all if anything
what part of previous 1'45.9pb did you miss ???
upto his rieti run, no one wouda ever said baala had anything close to hicham's speed
but couldn't maintain his projected endurance based on that past about 1200m
nonsense
1st you claim he is doping than you say the doping coudn't help him to hang onto 1500 which was his main distance ???
We don't know. Just because 2 athletes have similar 400 and 800 pbs, it doesn't mean they therefore have the same 1500 ability
you think baala is doping & doping coudn't get him to last 1500 race ???
nonsense
The most crucial piece of evidence is what his coach states, that he could run 48 and 1:44 in training. Yet you take this and 'spin' it into 47 flat and 1:42 low. I'd suggest that his true potential in a rested well paced race at his peak would lie somewhere in between
no
again, you have no clue about how rested & when in season he ran 48+ or 1'44+ or even what year
for all we know, he maya done them early season, off no speed-work & at end of a brutal day/week, totally unrested & not even in '98
another approach is required from simple adjustment of coach's comments - a coach who was clueless about his 5k ability
So, basically there are 2 questions here.
1). Can you see the contradiction in your comments?
nonsense
contradiction is because of further analysis/thought
2). Do you do this on purpose just to be contrary and to demean other posters who you simply don't like?
nonsense
i'm interested in getting to "truth", no interest at all about other posters
quite simply, tables i did have
3'30.00 = 1'42.93
3'26.00 = 1'40.80
& more realistically for hicham at 3'25-mid in a perfect race :
3'25.48 = 1'40.52
no way looking at those tables, that it is conceivable that hicham didn't have serious 800 ability at his 1500 peak & 1'43-flat is NOT serious 800 ability, especially now that record has dipped into 1'40s & guys like nijel have come from nowhere & gone 1'47+ to 1'41.73 in a season as a raw kid
ventolin3 wrote:
Ben L Wrong wrote:I think he's (or he'll be) in 3:28 flat form this year.Ventolin, what do you think?
we don't really have lot to go on except he is young & helluva a fighter
off his 3rd place over 800 in moscow last year, i'm pretty sure he coud go 1'43-flat at peak ( that was a semi-tactical race & he went 1'43.7 )
we have no idea about his 400 speed, but some different lines of fit assuming peak 1'43-flat speed with usual 46-mid/47-low speed these "pure" 1500 guys invariably have :
1'43.00 with
46.50 -> 3'30.13 , 3'47.49
46.75 -> 3'29.28 , 3'46.47
47.00 -> 3'28.43 , 3'45.46
experience tells me that the middle line looks reasonable for season peak
he shouda go 3'29+ this year in a perfect race
interesting to note, hicham may have had no better than same 1'43-flat speed ( but that does need more info which we never seem to get ) but likely wouda run it off much slower 400 ability, meaning vastly superior endurance
47.75 -> 3'25.88 , 3'42.42
it is these apparently small differences which manifest as huge differences at 1500 - in this case hicham having same 800 ability as the somali but having to do it off ~ 1s slower 400 ability
Interesting post. Agreed that Guerrouj was a runner of great endurance (look at his 5,000M Olympic gold medal...how often has that happened in the last fifty years?). I can only imagine what he could've run if he had 45-second 400M speed, although I guess at that point he would've been a sprinter and not a great distance runner. Who do you think is the fastest at 400/800M of any miler?
I thought this thread was about Souleiman and how fast he may be able to run.
At least we will get an answer on this at some point.
We'll never get an answer on how fast El G could have run a 400, 800 or 5000.
GoldenMiles wrote:Interesting post. Agreed that Guerrouj was a runner of great endurance (look at his 5,000M Olympic gold medal...how often has that happened in the last fifty years?). I can only imagine what he could've run if he had 45-second 400M speed, although I guess at that point he would've been a sprinter and not a great distance runner. Who do you think is the fastest at 400/800M of any miler?
my list for 400 :
Ryun - 45-flat ( the brief Dusseldorf vid is of the GOAT )
coe - 45-high
noah/cram - 46-low
bernie - 46-low/mid
asbel - 46-high
ovett - 46-high/47-flat
hicham - 47-flat/low
morceli - 47-low/mid
the big ? is aouita
i normally went with 47-low/mid
( & i believe he was as quick as morceli at ~ 3'27-flat in '85, but he was not good at chasing times - very lazy runner, trying to always get a wr with just the last lap blast )
however, his alleged 36.1 finish in a 3'34.8 in '84 is more that of 46-flat/low !!!
( not as fast as Ryun because aouita brought immense 5k wr level ability to keep him strong in the sprint, compensating for inferior speed, but it wouda still had to have been damn fast )
the 46-flat/low with something like 12'55 ability even back in '84 ( he cruised to 13'04 gold in hot smog ) yields nonsensical 800 of 1'40-high/3'23-high
aouita i will stick at 47-low/mid until any firm evidence of that 36.1/3'34.8 emerges
for 800 :
Ryun - 1'39.9
coe - his 1'41.7wr is there, but i have severe doubts about track & timing ( most any elite who turned up there got a big SB or PB ) - his 1'42.3 was an uncontestable clocking & all in indicates ~ 1'42-flat at peak in '81
noah - 1'41-high
cram/bernie - 1'41-high/1'42-flat
hicham - 1'42-low
asbel - 1'42-mid
aouita - 1'42-high ( maybe quicker - to make up nearly 10m on last lap of a soon-to-be 1'42 cram was astonishing & aouita ran significant extra distance in that race )
ovett/morceli - 1'43-flat
So the one 800 time that is actually real you dismiss, and then make up times for all the others that they got nowhere near to.
Absolutely priceless trolling. LMFAO
mickey mouse track/timing
when you call it zurich/london/oslo/rome/brussels/berlin/rieti/any OG or WC city, that venue is worth respecting, then it is authentic
what part of nijel 1'41.73 after rounds as raw 18y you not comprehend for immediate re-evaluation of worth of 800 for others ???
ventolin^3 wrote:
mickey mouse track/timing
when you call it zurich/london/oslo/rome/brussels/berlin/rieti/any OG or WC city, that venue is worth respecting, then it is authentic
what part of nijel 1'41.73 after rounds as raw 18y you not comprehend for immediate re-evaluation of worth of 800 for others ???
Your extrapolations and calculations are what is "mickey mouse." You cherry pick and concoct bizarre times to suit your fantasies. Nobody who has rigorous mental power takes you seriously, even if you occasionally come close to the mark.
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