Ben True's Improvement is Suspicious

MIC ITW wrote:

As absurd as it may sound, it's possible that a wire-to-wire solo 13:24 could take more energy than a 13:02 where one ran steadily behind someone else the entire way.

Assuming all conditions were identical, this shows an increase in power output of about 4.5%. That's the equivalent of going from 10.0 for the 100 to 9.72 in 4 years.

It's not equivalent unless 10.0 and 13:24 are equivalent.

10.0 to 9.72 is equivalent to 13:02 to 12:40.

Chef Gordon Ramzi wrote:

need to be honest wrote:

Look at his IAAF profile, his yearly performances, his sudden successes. I think it's suspicious, and if we're going to question camps like NOP and OTC and the like, we need to certainly question a guy who is making such strides without the pedigree!

Agreed. A couple of years ago he was winning Yarmouth Clam Festival races in Maine and now he's dropping a 13:02. Doesn't make sense. Hope he gets popped, as he comes across as an unpleasant human being as well as a doper.

^this has to be a joke, I just spit my coke everywhere this made me laugh so hard. I'm just gonna keep saying look at my post on page one. He's flat out more talented than Rupp. He was 5 seconds behind rupp in 2003 and now 11 years later he's 4 seconds back. You're right, no way he could have gained a second without drugs...

Random anecdote-

I was a counselor at a popular running camp in the north east when True was heading into his senior year. The camp had several top regional runners as well as True and another FL kid who went on to run sub 4:10.

True hadn't run all summer because of a broken collarbone and if I remember correctly, that week was his 1st or 2nd week back.

What I remember was that he was far better than every other kid, including the FL kid (who I believe beat him a few times that fall), despite being in just his first week back training. There was one day where we did a pseudo hard effort and True ran on my shoulder the entire time, comfortably holding a conversation while many of the others fell off or were working too hard to converse.

Randy Oldman wrote:

need to also be honest wrote:

Hassan Mead is not an American.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Mead

He's American, he moved here when he was 11.

I'm American, I moved here when I was 35.

THIS^^^^^

coach d wrote:

need to be honest wrote:

Look at his IAAF profile, his yearly performances, his sudden successes. I think it's suspicious, and if we're going to question camps like NOP and OTC and the like, we need to certainly question a guy who is making such strides without the pedigree!

Compare True's 4 year progression ending with 13:02 with Rupp's 4 year progression ending with 12:58.

I know which one looks more suspicious.

Only if you're an idiot. Everyone knew Rupp wasn't really a 13:30 5k guy when he closed a 10k in 13:37. Heck he ran 13:37 in HS. So get real, his time progression in the 5K isn't relevant since it didn't come close to matching what he could have done in those earlier years.

I don't think there's more reason to suspect Ben True of doping than there is for any other elite runner. High level skiers have better aerobic capacity than runners of a similar caliber. His time spent skiing actually did a better job developing his general aerobic capacity than running would have. With 4 years of specific running work I'm not surprised that he's now back to the ballpark of fitness that Rupp is in given that they were similar back in high school. He's been pretty much healthy for the 5 years he's been out of school which right away gives him a leg up on most professional US distance runners and a lot of his improvement the last few years can be attributed to the fact that he's just recently become a full time runner. Not saying he's clean or that there are other ways to interpret his situation, I just don't personally feel his recent fitness is particularly suspect.

13:24 is :47 away from 12:37, or an additional 6.2% added to the WR.6.2% added to 9.59 = 10.18True cut the gap from his PR to the WR in half.A sprinter doing the same would go from 10.18 to 9.89.The next 20 seconds aren't going to be chipped away so easily.

serious answer wrote:

MIC ITW wrote:

As absurd as it may sound, it's possible that a wire-to-wire solo 13:24 could take more energy than a 13:02 where one ran steadily behind someone else the entire way.

Assuming all conditions were identical, this shows an increase in power output of about 4.5%. That's the equivalent of going from 10.0 for the 100 to 9.72 in 4 years.

It's not equivalent unless 10.0 and 13:24 are equivalent.

10.0 to 9.72 is equivalent to 13:02 to 12:40.

need to be honest wrote:

Look at his IAAF profile, his yearly performances, his sudden successes. I think it's suspicious, and if we're going to question camps like NOP and OTC and the like, we need to certainly question a guy who is making such strides without the pedigree!

According to morons like you, I guess we shouldn't even watch these races. After all, if someone improves, he or she MUST be doping. The Gestapo drug nuts on this board cannot come to terms with a runner having a breakthrough performance or experiencing steady improvement.

Here's a suggestion: let USADA do it's job and concentrate on something positive for a change. Maybe get a job or try and meet a girl or whatever gets your tiny conspiratorial mind off of runners who are a hellava lot faster than you.

As for True, I actually was talking to author Chris Lear about True today.

My comment was, "13:02 doesn't shock me. He was basically as good as Rupp in HS xc without even training. For years, I always wondered why he'd improved way less than Rupp."

It seems it just took True a while to adjust to being a full-time runner after skiiting which requires a lot of arm strength, etc.

The fact he could get 5th or whatever it was at Foot Locker without training is absurd.

Incredible natural endurance. He's also got great speed. True is probably naturally faster than Rupp. 2007 pbs at 1500: Rupp 3:43. True 3:40.

Seyta wrote:

- Jager, when under Schumacher, experienced absolutely MASSIVE increases in performance in a very short period of time. Yes, I'm very aware that many of you adore Jager, but he debuted with an 8:26 in the Steeple, and cut it down to 8:06 for the American Record in 3 months.

- Solinsky, when under Schumacher, debuted with a 26:59 in the 10k and had a string of consistent and very high level races for 1-2 seasons before basically vanishing due to a string of injuries.

Seyta, we at letsrun like it when people are skeptical but not illogically so.

Jager improved by MASSIVE amounts in the steeple in a short period of time? Of course he did, it was his first year of hte steeple. Most guys take it very safe in their first steeple. 20 seconds in year one isn't shocking at all.

Stuff like that happened all the time when I was coaching at Cornell. And it continues even now when I'm not there. Last year, they had a frosh debut at 9:31. He ran 8:55 at the end of the year.

When guys are consistent and then injured like Solinsky, that's a sign they aren't doping. Dopers are a) consistent as hell and b) rarely injured.

That being said, when you pull your pelvis off, it wouldn't matter if you were a doper or not, your performance would suffer big time.

rojo wrote:

As for True, I actually was talking to author Chris Lear about True today.

My comment was, "13:02 doesn't shock me. He was basically as good as Rupp in HS xc without even training. For years, I always wondered why he'd improved way less than Rupp."

It seems it just took True a while to adjust to being a full-time runner after skiiting which requires a lot of arm strength, etc.

The fact he could get 5th or whatever it was at Foot Locker without training is absurd.

Incredible natural endurance. He's also got great speed. True is probably naturally faster than Rupp. 2007 pbs at 1500: Rupp 3:43. True 3:40.

How many 1500's did Rupp run in 2007 which was his best year by far at that point? 0. He ran a 3:44 equiv in HS in 2004. Not really sure that's a fair point.

Not saying he's not naturally faster, just that picking Ben true's best year at that point (he'd only gone 3:44 prior) and comparing it to Rupp who raced no 1500's that year is a bit wrong.

I've heard multiple stories around New England and Dartmouth that True is/was three things:

1) Insanely talented - The AZ 4:02 mile story was like 2 weeks after ski season ended. Supposedly True would gain 15 pounds or more every winter for ski season, mostly upper-body.

2) Very driven and focused - the guy never even once drank in his 4 years there, I've heard that from two different Dartmouth runners.

3) Really humble and genuinely nice - I witnessed this first-hand when he was a high-schooler, and people who know him say he deserves the success. I was just a dad at a small meet, but the kid was a very gracious winner.

This is NOT the profile of a doper. Admittedly, people can change, but I find it highly unlikely.

A pedigree? He's not a horse.

And where have you been? He's been a champion runner all along.

Dkny64 wrote:

messi wrote:

Poppycock. Ben True ran a 4:02 mile in the heat of Arizona two weeks after winning NCAA X-C ski-ing.

Guy has always had potential.....and a damn efficient running form.

And as we all know, xc skiing is a sport as pure as the driven snow.

XC skiing used biological passport years before T&F.

I agree with you 100%. To accuse Ben of drug use is absurd. I don't know if this question of his integrity is trolling or not but he is not a drug user.

This is LetsRun. Only white Americans are clean, remember?

These accusations are a riot. Previous posts have shown evidence of his potential from the time he was in high school.

A humble, hardworking, and extremely talented guy is now in a position to threaten the chosen child in the Pacific Northwest - WITHOUT every training advantage known to mankind.

Now people are getting sore vag***s over it because he shouldn't be allowed? Or he wasn't anointed by Alberto at an early age?

His talent was there from the beginning.

He hasn't focused on running his entire life...he is now.

He knows how to mix it up, doesn't need specific races/conditions in order to lay it out there.

No Rupp-Certified races required.

Let's see what happens from here.

His talent was there from the beginning.

He hasn't focused on running his entire life...he is now.

He knows how to mix it up, doesn't need specific races/conditions in order to lay it out there.

^ this

not this V

No Rupp-Certified races required. < this is not relevant

Let's see what happens from here.

Don't make this about someone else. Ben is a talent.

Wait, Jager's drop in the steeple had nothing to do with anything other than familiarity and pacing. In his first steeple ever, he ran 8:26. Then he ran 8:19-21 with a bad fall on the last jump. And then he got into a fast Euro race. For a guy who ran 13:20 at 20 and then healthy again after years of injury, 8:06 is hardly strange or surprising in any way.