Look at his IAAF profile, his yearly performances, his sudden successes. I think it's suspicious, and if we're going to question camps like NOP and OTC and the like, we need to certainly question a guy who is making such strides without the pedigree!
need to be honest wrote:
Look at his IAAF profile, his yearly performances, his sudden successes. I think it's suspicious, and if we're going to question camps like NOP and OTC and the like, we need to certainly question a guy who is making such strides without the pedigree!
Thought I read that he trains with Chelanga? If true, that's a very good training partner.
By accusing True you admit that NOP and OTC are guilty.
Is this really so crazy? 5-10s/yr?
2014 13:02.74
2013 13:11.59
2012 13:20.53
2011 13:24.11
guilty as charged wrote:
By accusing True you admit that NOP and OTC are guilty.
That logic makes absolutely no sense.
NOP, OTC, Schumacher's group, etc. can be called into suspicion for a varying number of factors. However, none of them convict them.
Objectively looking at it with the Nike athletes:
- Salazar has coached an athlete who was caught doping (Slaney)
- Nike has sponsored athletes who have been caught with PEDs and who have been involved in very questionable situations (Pistorius, Woods, etc.)
- Farah, when under Salazar, became a world beater at an age that would normally be past a runner's prime. He quite literally went from getting trounced at every race and being beaten by runners who lost their shoe to being undefeatable in almost every major championship.
- Rupp has been on thyroids for who knows how long. Some consider this illegitimate, some don't.
- Centro seems to get soundly beaten routinely during the season, but always manages to perform unexpectedly well during championships.
- Jager, when under Schumacher, experienced absolutely MASSIVE increases in performance in a very short period of time. Yes, I'm very aware that many of you adore Jager, but he debuted with an 8:26 in the Steeple, and cut it down to 8:06 for the American Record in 3 months.
- Solinsky, when under Schumacher, debuted with a 26:59 in the 10k and had a string of consistent and very high level races for 1-2 seasons before basically vanishing due to a string of injuries.
This does not mean any of them are actually guilty.
Performance-wise, it's actually Farah, Jager, and Solinsky who are the most suspicious among them. Rupp at least has had a very steady margin of improvement each year since starting with Salazar in HS.
Farah went from zero to world-beater in the span of a year, Jager lowered his Steeplechase time by 18 seconds in 3 months in the span of 3 races, and Solinsky managed to debut a 10k with an American record followed by a series of excellent 5ks and then nothing.
That's about as far as the suspicion goes, and really, until one of them gets caught, they're innocent. And don't go blabbering that nonsense about Lance, Marion, FloJo, etc. having never been caught. If that logic is applied, then all runners who have never tested positive should be under suspicion for PED use simply because they haven't tested positive.
BEN TRUE IS NO CHEATER BRO. In all seriousness though, Ben True is an exceptional human being all around. I agree with testing all athletes equally and fairly, but throwing out accusations just because an athlete is competing well is a bit ridiculous. Should American athletes just give up running because the only way to succeed is through drug cheating?
need to be honest wrote:
Look at his IAAF profile, his yearly performances, his sudden successes. I think it's suspicious, and if we're going to question camps like NOP and OTC and the like, we need to certainly question a guy who is making such strides without the pedigree!
Poppycock. Ben True ran a 4:02 mile in the heat of Arizona two weeks after winning NCAA X-C ski-ing.
Guy has always had potential.....and a damn efficient running form.
you think that True is on NOPe dope or oregon juice?
messi wrote:
Poppycock. Ben True ran a 4:02 mile in the heat of Arizona two weeks after winning NCAA X-C ski-ing.
Guy has always had potential.....and a damn efficient running form.
Too much nuance for the OP to comprehend. Don't expect them to figure it out either.
Ho Hum wrote:
Is this really so crazy? 5-10s/yr?
2014 13:02.74
2013 13:11.59
2012 13:20.53
2011 13:24.11
If it happened from 19 to 22, I would say no. In the late 20's it becomes much more suspicious.
"Jager lowered his Steeplechase time by 18 seconds in 3 months in the span of 3 races"
You've clearly never raced steeple before. Dropping 20 seconds after your first time trying a race is not all that ridiculous. Especially considering he won in his debut, and wasn't pushed the entire time.
Suspicious-no you get results when you do honest hard work.
messi wrote:
need to be honest wrote:Look at his IAAF profile, his yearly performances, his sudden successes. I think it's suspicious, and if we're going to question camps like NOP and OTC and the like, we need to certainly question a guy who is making such strides without the pedigree!
Poppycock. Ben True ran a 4:02 mile in the heat of Arizona two weeks after winning NCAA X-C ski-ing.
Guy has always had potential.....and a damn efficient running form.
And as we all know, xc skiing is a sport as pure as the driven snow.
Hi Brad wrote:
Ho Hum wrote:Is this really so crazy? 5-10s/yr?
2014 13:02.74
2013 13:11.59
2012 13:20.53
2011 13:24.11
If it happened from 19 to 22, I would say no. In the late 20's it becomes much more suspicious.
Suspicion is healthy, and fair.
However, you have to look at the opportunities True had to run those times.
In a 12.5 lap race run around this pace (4:10 - 4:15 ish) there is roughly 15 seconds to be gained or lost via drafting or not. So, we need to look at how deep those races were in which he ran his seasonal best time. Where did he place in each race and what was the median and mean time of the top 5 runners in each race?
As absurd as it may sound, it's possible that a wire-to-wire solo 13:24 could take more energy than a 13:02 where one ran steadily behind someone else the entire way.
Assuming all conditions were identical, this shows an increase in power output of about 4.5%. That's the equivalent of going from 10.0 for the 100 to 9.72 in 4 years.
Hi Brad wrote:
Ho Hum wrote:Is this really so crazy? 5-10s/yr?
2014 13:02.74
2013 13:11.59
2012 13:20.53
2011 13:24.11
If it happened from 19 to 22, I would say no. In the late 20's it becomes much more suspicious.
The guy was XC skiing in college indoors instead of running. He was holding himself back and almost gave up running to make a run at the Olympics in XC skiing. So the guys route is a bit different than most.
Seyta wrote:
guilty as charged wrote:By accusing True you admit that NOP and OTC are guilty.
That logic makes absolutely no sense.
NOP, OTC, Schumacher's group, etc. can be called into suspicion for a varying number of factors. However, none of them convict them.
Objectively looking at it with the Nike athletes:
- Salazar has coached an athlete who was caught doping (Slaney)
- Nike has sponsored athletes who have been caught with PEDs and who have been involved in very questionable situations (Pistorius, Woods, etc.)
- Farah, when under Salazar, became a world beater at an age that would normally be past a runner's prime. He quite literally went from getting trounced at every race and being beaten by runners who lost their shoe to being undefeatable in almost every major championship.
- Rupp has been on thyroids for who knows how long. Some consider this illegitimate, some don't.
- Centro seems to get soundly beaten routinely during the season, but always manages to perform unexpectedly well during championships.
- Jager, when under Schumacher, experienced absolutely MASSIVE increases in performance in a very short period of time. Yes, I'm very aware that many of you adore Jager, but he debuted with an 8:26 in the Steeple, and cut it down to 8:06 for the American Record in 3 months.
- Solinsky, when under Schumacher, debuted with a 26:59 in the 10k and had a string of consistent and very high level races for 1-2 seasons before basically vanishing due to a string of injuries.
This does not mean any of them are actually guilty.
Performance-wise, it's actually Farah, Jager, and Solinsky who are the most suspicious among them. Rupp at least has had a very steady margin of improvement each year since starting with Salazar in HS.
Farah went from zero to world-beater in the span of a year, Jager lowered his Steeplechase time by 18 seconds in 3 months in the span of 3 races, and Solinsky managed to debut a 10k with an American record followed by a series of excellent 5ks and then nothing.
That's about as far as the suspicion goes, and really, until one of them gets caught, they're innocent. And don't go blabbering that nonsense about Lance, Marion, FloJo, etc. having never been caught. If that logic is applied, then all runners who have never tested positive should be under suspicion for PED use simply because they haven't tested positive.
Centro has run 3:31 or 3:32 and is a master tactician. As we saw in Boston, East Africans usually run better in less tactical races.
Thyroid meds are not a golden drug. Pumping Rupps thyroid levels sky high would make him incredibly sick, which you idiots dont comprehend. If he needs a boost to get in a healthy range, that isnt unfair. Anyway, it was stated earlier this year that no NOP athletes had an active TUE.
Tiger woods and octar pistorius have nothing to do with Rupp and Farah.
Farah was most certaintly NOT past peak age for a distance runner. Peak aerobic capacity is typically about 29...
Mo and Solinsky both saw huge performance gains simply by getting their shit together. Prior to their breakthroughs, both took poor care of themselves and their training.
Anyway, 12:55 man Solinsky running 26:59 in a well rabbited race is nothing unusual. Why would a 12:55 guy who is aerobically inclined not break 27?
Finally Jager dropping his steeple time...he was still learning steeple DUMBAzz
Unfortunately it is always fair to question an awesome performance. That is the era we live in. But nordic skiing is extremely intense. It is sort of similar to swimming in that athletes can put in much more volume because they are not hitting the ground (a limitation in running). Put it this way, when an article says Ritz is running an extra 50 mpw on an alter-g treadmill, imagine True putting in 100+ miles per week on skis. It is an amazing aerobic investment. Oh, and it gives you upper body strength. He has mentioned that he needed to drop some weight to concentrate on running. I think VO2 improves with the drop in weight.
need to also be honest wrote:
Hassan Mead is not an American.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Mead
He's American, he moved here when he was 11.
I'm American, I moved here when I was 35.
Why don't all of you go take a look at the 2003 footlocker championships.
1. Withrow
2. Rupp
3. shadrak kiptoo
4. McDougal
5. Ben m*fing True
He was in a prodigy class finishing 7 seconds from withrow. Either you're a kid and are uninformed or you have a very short memory. His love of skiing held his running back and when he committed to running in 2010 things started to skyrocket for him.
need to be honest wrote:
Look at his IAAF profile, his yearly performances, his sudden successes. I think it's suspicious, and if we're going to question camps like NOP and OTC and the like, we need to certainly question a guy who is making such strides without the pedigree!
Compare True's 4 year progression ending with 13:02 with Rupp's 4 year progression ending with 12:58.
I know which one looks more suspicious.