Caleb Ndiku on Lagat: "I simply used Lagat’s tactics to beat him. I like Lagat. He is a friendly guy."

I don't normally feel this way, but V3 is absolutely destroying sminto in this discussion

Baren wrote:

I don't normally feel this way, but V3 is absolutely destroying sminto in this discussion

lol, my thoughts exactly. Sometimes it helps to have the facts on your side.

observer #2 wrote:

Baren wrote:

I don't normally feel this way, but V3 is absolutely destroying sminto in this discussion

lol, my thoughts exactly. Sometimes it helps to have the facts on your side.

Not really. He's not using any facts at all. He quotes me then responds with arguments that I never made or with nonsense "facts". This gives the appearance of a good winning response but it isn't.

For example, I said that a fading 12:57 means that he was good for faster with better pacing and that we would need to see splits from the race to see exactly how much faster he could have been that day.

For example, if one of his intermediate splits was a 50 (an exaggeration, I know), then that would be a pretty close performance to 12:53 with a 54 final lap and would explain why he was fading. But instead of finding the splits (read: actual facts), he responds with "usual rubbish 5k pacing on the circuit nothing more/less".

For another example, I said that he set his PR in a race where he won by 50 or whatever many seconds in order to show that he was alone and that he could have run much faster that day. He responds with "he was racing euros". What does that have to do with anything?

For yet another example, I said that he has no clue what kind of training Farah was doing. This is a fact. There is absolutely no way you can argue with this. But he does argue with it. He has never asked Salazar or Farah what their training was at the time. Farah's results at 1500m and half marathon say otherwise. This is basic math. If the low number improves while the higher number decreases, then the focus has been changed to a shorter event/ability. This is an actual fact. An example of a non fact is "where was his Moscow 1500".

Having a rational discussion with ventolin is not possible. Especially one without receiving insults.

plowed wrote:

ventolin^3 wrote:

in addition it worth following bernie's example from performance view

canova has stated that if asbel was in sal camp

( meaning solid weight-training/nutriotinst/physiologist/physio/medical/blood test monitoring/etc he wouda been running 3'25+ by now )

Because the traditional training that Kenyans do is so substandard. Right.

Idiot.

ventolin^3 wrote:

if rudy had been with sal, i'd expected him to have been at least 1/2s faster in london

LOL. Because of all the success Alberto has had with 800m men?

ventolin^3 wrote:

as for asbel, canova has gone on record he woud be into 3'25s

LOL. OK, then it must be absolute certainty that he would be two seconds faster.

ventolin^3 wrote:

as for asbel, canova has gone on record he woud be into 3'25s

I'm not saying that's not true but I'm a little skeptical. I'll send you $5 via paypal if you can produce a link to an article where Canova says he thinks KIprop could run 3:25 under Salazar.

It's worth $5 to read that. So please do that and email your email address and I'll pay you.

On the other hand, I do have to agree with you when you say that "Sminto" is wrong for saying the following:

sminto wrote:

Salazar did not produce Farah. Farah was already well under 13 and a speedy guy before he ever went to Salazar. Exactly how do you know he was doing 5k/10k training when he ran 3:28?

He most certainly did. Farah was a spare on the world scene before the NOP. Yes, he was sub 13 but he was far from a world beater.

He's really the only world beater I can think of in my 25 years of following the sport that has developed into a world beater.

Think about it.

800: rudisha - phenom fromt he get go.

1500 - El G, Kiprop - phenoms from Get go.

5k/10 - Bekele/Geb, etc. Phenoms from the get go.

Marathon - wanjiru - phenom from the get go.

Every other star I know of was basically the best in their very early 20s. Farah was a spare and now is a phenom.

If you think Salazar doesn't deserve credit .

I left out the remaining two of his arguments.

His argument about Salazar not forgetting about Bekele,Tadesse, and the 2003 10k is actually rational and ok, but it's just wrong. The common element in all of those races is.... Bekele. And bekele had/has not been in form since those races. It's perfectly possible that Salazar and Farah factored Bekele out of those races. Salazar might have even had more information on Bekele's current status seeing as how Bekele supposedly talked to Salazar about joining NOP.

But Ventolin responds with "you are totally clueless". How am I clueless? My point was that championship races are more often than not a slower tactical race than they are a time trial or a fast race. This is a fact. But Ventolin just responds with two of the rare examples of championship races that were actually fast (that, again, had a common element - Bekele) but it's totally irrelevant. What statement of mine is that even a response to? I said more often than not, the races are slow. How does Ventolin's mention of those two fast Bekele races change this fact? It doesn't.

His last response about the difference between Farah's 12:57 and 12:53 races is equally silly and unsubstantiated. Again, I asked about the splits and he just responds with "nothing different until 4k". What were the actual splits? Does he even know?

It's somewhat irrelevant because my point was that if he was fading, then something in the race along the way was too fast for Farah. That's why people fade. This is a fact. But he says "no". Really??? And what do I need to "get a clue" about? I asked a question, I didn't make an argument.

rojo wrote:

He most certainly did. Farah was a spare on the world scene before the NOP. Yes, he was sub 13 but he was far from a world beater.

He's really the only world beater I can think of in my 25 years of following the sport that has developed into a world beater.

Think about it.

800: rudisha - phenom fromt he get go.

1500 - El G, Kiprop - phenoms from Get go.

5k/10 - Bekele/Geb, etc. Phenoms from the get go.

Marathon - wanjiru - phenom from the get go.

Every other star I know of was basically the best in their very early 20s. Farah was a spare and now is a phenom.

If you think Salazar doesn't deserve credit .

No, he did not produce Farah. You cannot put icing on a cake and claim that you baked the cake. Icing is what Salazar gets credit for.

You really call sub 13 a spare? A sub 13 runner is a medal contender on the right day. I wouldn't call that a spare at all. Let's be reasonable here.

I don't understand your phenoms from the get go idea. All of those runners started out slower than they turned out to be. I don't know Rudisha's history, but Wanjiru had been training for almost 15 years by the time he was in his 20s. Bekele and El G also started out much slower.

I'm not even sure what 'get go' means. Are you only measuring from the time they started competing in international level races? If so, that doesn't make any sense. All that could mean is they spent their slow years "hiding". An example of this I already mentioned in that Wanjiru had been training for almost 15 years before he started really getting in the public eye. This is especially the case for a guy like Geb who is known for running his whole life. His 2:30+ marathon as a high schooler surely wasn't phenomenal. He would have almost gotten beaten by a 16 american girl last year.

But if 'get go' means something else, then please be more specific so I don't misinterpret it.

we've been thru this

no

Rojo,

I believe ventolin is referring to this post which I also recalled reading

just looked it up -

"In my opinion, we have here talent for running 3'24" in 1500m, 12'30" in 5000, 25'50" in 10000 and 2:01:00 in Marathon. There is this kind of talent, but it's not possible to have a full project, as for example can happen with Mo Farah and Galen Rupp."

Source:

I was only trolling ventolin^3 to hijack this pointless thread. Have you even seen Rocky IV?

A Suck wrote:

plowed wrote:

Because the traditional training that Kenyans do is so substandard. Right.

Idiot.

http://youtu.be/ZUMqOEDhLkU

A Suck wrote:LOL. Because of all the success Alberto has had with 800m men?

i'd bet sal woud strike a bargain with mephistopheles if he coud get his hands on some "raw" 1'43/1'44 kenyans

i shudder to think what he coud do to them with his "patented" weight-training based approach

drivel

you seem to have neither seen races mentioned or have any clue about them

clueless

you didn't see race & now question someone who did ?!

he came fifth in 12'57, thoroughly outsprinted by bunch of africans + admirable solinsky who blasted him away on last lap, tariku winning in 12'55

actual FACT from someone who bothered to watch race :

it was a 55+ finish from winner whereas mo, who was with pack at bell faded to 57+

& to quote a mid-race 50+ is absolute height of stoopidity

idiot

you seriously think winning in 27'28 from bunch of iberians/scndinavians who weren't even household names in their own bathroom is same calibre as a 26'46 over best africans sans kennster ???

why on earth woud i be interested in the training of a guy who coud only run 12'57/27'28 pre-sal ???

utter nonsense

you have no idea what his 10k shape was in london or moscow

if you believe he turned up in anything worse than 26'40 shape it shows your knowledge of track is sub-0

i'm very happy to discuss track with intelligent, knowlegeable guys

you fail in both respects

they weren't worth waiting for

more nonsense

even if kennster wasn't in shape, he had 1/2 dozen+ other young africans to worry about

if you think they coudn't turn out some serious < < 27 guys on race day, you haven't a clue

the top 3 kenyans in '12 trials in eugene ran 27'01+ with a jog thru 9600m & last lap sprint

lucas who had run previous year a 26'43, which shouda been more like 26'30/26'35 at even pace + better than derisory 13'25 split kennster requested in brussels, coud only finish 6th in 27'09

you think he trained harder for brussels than kenyan trials ???

the concept of handling any possible race scenario is clearly beyond you

your knowledge of track seems sh!t

the 10k championship races to compare all to are '72 with viren wr & '88 when boutayeb "walked" home in the stretch in 27'20+ in brutal heat/humidity, when if he'd bothered to sprint the last lap he couda broken mamede's 27'13wr

those are races that have to be always borne in mind

more rubbish from someone who didn't bother to watch

they were on ~ 12'55 pace thru 3k, slowed in 4th k to a jog & only sprinted in last lap where mo got crushed for 5th

more nonsense

mo coudn't produce better than ~ 57 last lap in a 12'57 at the time

that is not anywhere in same universe as the 54+ he produced in a 12'53 soon after joining sal

Sminto has the best arguments, but argues like a cry-baby ("he said that but I said that, whaaa").

Fact is that Farah ran 12:57 in a not optimal race and has only improved a few seconds under Salazar. Farah had both good speed and good endurance even on sh|tty training. Salazar didn't just put the icing on the cake, though. Salazar also mixed the ingredients and put the cake in the oven. Good coaching, but nothing extraordinary.

Haha Ventolin your math is ambitious, but I love your posts. I can tell you have an appreciation for what you do, and I respect that. You're a fan who dreams of faster times, and the sport needs more people with that vision.

judger of discussions wrote:

Sminto has the best arguments, but argues like a cry-baby ("he said that but I said that, whaaa").

That's not arguing like a crybaby. Someone claimed that Ventolin was using facts while I was not. Pointing each of our responses is how you compare who was really using facts. It's got nothing to do with being a crybaby. I never said "whaaa".

ventolin^3 wrote:

drivel

you seem to have neither seen races mentioned or have any clue about them

Ventolin, this is a perfect example of your problem. Nowhere in any of my posts did I claim to have seen the races. In fact, I made it clear that I did not know the splits and that both of us would need to see the splits of each race before coming to any conclusions.

But instead of providing the numbers, you just repeatedly insult me and ridicule me. It doesn't make any sense.

You also don't seem to understand what "get a clue" and "drivel" mean, because I'm not even making a conclusion about the splits or races. All I'm doing is asking questions about the splits. If I had claimed that I knew the splits and those splits were wrong or inaccurate, THEN maybe you could say "get a clue" or "drivel".

The rest of your replies are filled with strange, irrelevant responses to things that I never said. Did you mean to quote another poster instead maybe?

Crush weights like Mo Farah and you will become world champion. Without weightlifting, guaranteed Mo does not even medal in London or Moscow.