Why are long runs Nessecary for Shorter Distances? 800-1500????

It's reasonable not to go over 90 minutes in season if you are a top middle distance runner, since you are probably going at least 15 miles, maybe 16 or more over that time. What the 90+ minute runs do of obvious value is for xc and longer road races, giving you the strength and endurance for those distances. Physiologically, the 90+ minute runs see a marked increase in capillary and mitochondrial development. Those physiological improvements, plus the added toughness from the long runs, may very well make up for the FT issues for middle distance runners, but they may not.

It's amazing to think that Symmonds and Kratochvilova basically have the same 400 PR (and BMI) but the former can run 10 seconds faster in the 800m.

As for the long run question, I say no (but that's based on my definition of a long run).

I have never done a traditional long run. In college my Sunday run was maybe 7 miles. Tue,

Thur, and Sat were all fast workouts. I don't think I could have done long runs when the workouts were so hard.

Here is the part to think about. Does a workout have to be a steady run? Does it have to be some random amount of time or distance? Here is what has worked for me for over 20 years of competitive running. At least once a week I get a longer multi paced workout in.

10 min Warm up

25 min tempo

10 min recovery

6 X 200, walk across field recovery all at 800 pace (12 min total)

20 min run to finish at med pace

Total workout time about 1 hr. 15 min Does your heart and capillaries know the difference?

If your long run takes away from being ready for race pace workouts then why do them? I also don't enjoy long runs unless it's a trail run.

Long runs are not necessary training for the middle distances; an ideal training program would not include any. However, that doesn't mean you should replace a long run with another track workout. Assuming you're already doing at least one hard track workout and race per week, scrap the long run and replace it with a recovery day. Ideal mid-distance training consists of approximately one or two high-intensity sessions at race speed per week (either in the form of intervals or races/time trials) and then ensuring adequate recovery between those sessions. There is no need for long runs.

I think Mark B mentioned that too. I don't know enough about 400m/800, versus 800+ runners to say about their long/no long running.

Snell ran 1:44 on dirt track, so it has been said that the rubber gives you a second per lap. So would he have run 1:42? That's a never-ending debate we will never know the answer to.

He did say that he would change very little, perhaps just a little less of the aerobic stuff.

Has Lydiard training progressed. You'd assume. The difference between his situation and say a Canova's was that there wasn't a tonne of money in running at the top like there is now, so when he went to Kenya, he told them that they were already doing all the right things in training. He recruited no one. Nowadays you have these foreign coaches go in there and cherry pick the best athletes.

Give Lydiard 20 Kenyans and give a European coach of today a group of neighbourhood kids from somewhere in the Commonwealth and see what happens.

Athleticsillustrated wrote:Snell ran 1:44 on dirt track, so it has been said that the rubber gives you a second per lap. So would he have run 1:42? That's a never-ending debate we will never know the answer to.

He did say that he would change very little, perhaps just a little less of the aerobic stuff

it was actually a 385y grass track off a too-quick opening lap according to snell

with those handicaps, you can offer 1'42-low on a 400m synthetic with better 1st lap

snell has mentioned he didn't have great speed for a 800 guy, so i do believe he wouda trained different if running today - much more speedwork than endurance - improving his 800 but his 1500 maya suffered

all depends on what he believed was his main event

Karma Police wrote:

Juantorena and Krachtochvilova were incredible 800 runners, on limited aerobic training. OK, they might have had some "assistance", but you still have to run for that time, and they did it without a lot of aerobic work. They of course were true 400-800 types - or even 200-400-800 types.

I find Krachtochivilova's times to be pretty average for a man

Yes he was the slowest pure based on pure speed (over 200m) in the final at the two Olympics, but won gold.

No. He said he would change very little, just some of the volume. His words.

It was the pure speed he needed so much, but yes that would help. He needed to have the aerobic engine for the business end of the 800m.

Part of the confusion over Coe's mileage may be down to what he counted as running. I've read that he would not log easy jogging, because he didn't regard it as "running". But most people would include those miles as easy mileage in their weekly total.

I suppose someone could ask him...

You know you are on to something, as many runners back then did not account for their easy mileage. However, he did say 60 miles, when he was referring to the quality end of his season. You are right though, funny no one has asked straight up, how many miles did you run in the off season including ALL mileage.....

I can provide Coe's training plan later.

rundoc wrote:

Stizzle wrote:

Seems like replacing the long run day with another hard track workout would be more beneficial if your goal is to get faster.

Develops more central adaptations to training.

The research is clear: interval training is good for more peripheral adaptions, like mitochondiral density.

Long runs will have a more significant impact on central adaptions like stroke volume (total volume of blood pumped per heart beat). Higher stroke volume=faster 1500.

Higher stroke volume will not help you run a faster 1500, it will have the opposite effect. Your heart will be working too hard pumping too much plasma. Think about it. You don't want a high blood volume/low hematocrit for a middle distance race.

I think you are wrong about Brenda Martinez, everything I have seen has a 10 miles a week pretty fast. That is a long run in my book.

no doc wrote:

rundoc wrote:

Develops more central adaptations to training.

The research is clear: interval training is good for more peripheral adaptions, like mitochondiral density.

Long runs will have a more significant impact on central adaptions like stroke volume (total volume of blood pumped per heart beat). Higher stroke volume=faster 1500.

Higher stroke volume will not help you run a faster 1500, it will have the opposite effect. Your heart will be working too hard pumping too much plasma. Think about it. You don't want a high blood volume/low hematocrit for a middle distance race.

wut

saw before deleted wrote:

no doc wrote:

Higher stroke volume will not help you run a faster 1500, it will have the opposite effect. Your heart will be working too hard pumping too much plasma. Think about it. You don't want a high blood volume/low hematocrit for a middle distance race.

wut

The what?

I'm pretty sure Brenda's Martinez 10 mile aerobic tempos Accomplish the same goal As a long run. Building the aerobic energy system. Doing a fast longer workout like this takes the place of the long run, and for a mid distance runner does not require the runner to be on their feet so long. In short, long run not completely necessary but aerobic energy system work is highly valuable.

i agree with this. during 10K/HM training, i would usually spend the first ~4mi of a Sunday a.m. long run getting warmed up before i could hammer sub6s for 8-12mi (and sometimes run easy 2-4mi more to get in some more volume). so essentially i was doing 10 miles of actual work surrounded by fluff. makes sense for a 800/1500/5K person to drop the fluff & save that energy for fast stuff on the track. so high end aerobic running for an hour makes sense as all you need for a "long run" as a midD runner. also for all we know she's doing a morning shakeout and/or some warmup miles before she jumps into the 10mi @ sub6.

123456 wrote:

I think you are wrong about Brenda Martinez, everything I have seen has a 10 miles a week pretty fast. That is a long run in my book.

Blood volume varies a lot due to hydration/dehydration.

If you do enough running to make you sweat a lot, your body will store more water, some of it in your blood plasma which is 91% water. This will give you a low (relative) hematocrit (percentage of red blood cells). This means that your heart has to word harder to deliver oxygen, (increased cardiac output)which will slow you down.

For a well conditioned high mileage 1500m runner, a combination of pre race nerves and a good warm up will take care of these variables, reducing plasma volume to the right level for racing.

Athleticsillustrated wrote:

Also, whoever said the word "pounding" take it out of your lexicon. Fast elite runners do not pound, they are very smooth. Overweight, out of shape beginners do...

They pound on a good day. On a bad day they plod.

But you can't tell them, they know their place, waaaaay back behind the elites, and that's where they intend to stay.