COMBINING OUR MINDS WILL YIELD EXPLOSIVE HORSEPOWER
One thing common to all of us is that sports hernia rehabilitation is an emotional roller coaster.
Everybody on this thread, me included, is partly insane part of the time, whenever our emotions surge. Elation then despair, elation then despair. Either emotion corrupts our reasoning ability.
If one reads this entire multi-year historical thread, one can find quite a few examples of longterm bitter heartbreak, people failing to recover after surgery, or without surgery, for years.
It seems to me that the only real way to put our minds together is to forget our personal emotions and inter-connect our pure reasoning powers.
Our goal is easily defined: THAT ALL OF US IN THIS LETSRUN THREAD RECOVER QUICKLY TO STRONG HEALTH.
Tomorrow, rather than fall into the temptation, as we all do, of trying to tell everybody what to do (prescribing), I'll instead simply report on the recent results, good and bad, I've personally had in my rehab, during the last few weeks.
Meanwhile I'm wishing everybody here a speedy recovery. The more we can combine our minds and experiences, each person different, the more certain we are to heal quickly.
Combining intellects only works in an atmosphere of critical thinking, and critical thinking requires that ideas be separated from persons.
COMBINING OUR MINDS WILL YIELD EXPLOSIVE HORSEPOWER
You have no idea if you even have it!!!!
To be honest the rehab is not nearly as bad as living with it undiagnosed. In fact I would say it is minimal compared to the existence I was living.
Also I did not have sports hernia, but athletic Pubalgia.
It seems you are the only one prescribing anything...Non-surgery....I do not recall anyone but you doing anything else
All i know have suggested to get a diagnosis....try therapy....get surgery if therapy does not work..
You can try and use fancy words and fancy quotes all you want.
I used to love guys in sales who were like you....Always making a simple thing more difficult. It is the successful man who can take the complicated and make it simple...
The injury may not be simple. However the approach to it is.
It is the speciailist that we entrust who is to deal with the complexities of the injury....not us. We can specualted all we want but it is they....when they open us who make the call.
For us it is this once again
1) GO TO A DR....get a firm diagnosis
2) Try PT...(if it works....great...if not)
3) Get surgery
4) Rehab diligently
Also besides the heartache you say you see on here there are way more examples of success.
My rehab has not been elation despair...elation despair...
I have every reason to feel that way because of the MCL tear and foot injury...I suppose I could say why me.....But I know I am getting better...Week by week. Some weeks the gains are huge...other times not so much....But that ius why i keep a diary to let me know.
My body is getting strong and streamlined. My legs are getting shredded....My waist is getting leaner.
It has not been easy...but I love to workout and althiug my knee and foot hurts I will take that over having to lay in bed because in 6 weeks my knee will be better.....and hopefully my foot...But 1 thing for sure is this....MY AP will be a memory...It almost is now.
The despair this injury gave me was the not knowing....The going to 12+ docs with no answers. That is why a guy like you pisses me off. You have the inkling you may have it but you do not have the balls to see a doc....Where guyslike me and JC would have given our left nut to get a diagnosis.
That is why I can not take you seriously. It is not rage nor despair like you opine. It is simply that you have ZERO credibility in my book until you get a diagnosis.
Hopefully you just have a nagging sprain. Who knows....but i am not biting on an attempt to rally the troops
I will be the first one to call BULLSHIT on you once again!!
Of course we all want to get back to health and that's why should see a qualified doctor or physical therapist about this. You have way more information on this injury than I had at your stage. I wasted almost an entire year with physicians and surgeons who were completely clueless about the injury. Part of the emotional roller coaster is the mystery of not knowing what is holding you back. If you had a bad tooth, would you try to yank it out yourself or go to the dentist?
I worked as a pharmacist's assistant during high school and college. There, one can readily observe hypochondria. Hypochondria is something that affects just about everybody sooner or later, hopefully only temporarily.
I've had it myself for a short time, so I recognize the pattern. Many prescriptions in a typical pharmacy are sold not to truly sick people, but to people who are excessively worried about their health, fretting and fretting. Women get it more often than men, but probably all men experience it sometime. For example Napoleon in his later years.
Hypochondria is more common in a person's life when they have time to think, occuring much less frequently in busy manual laborers.
Some doctors have practices that are comprised to a large extent of hypochondriacs. Some hypochondriacs visit doctor after doctor after doctor. Hypochondria is a large factor in the medical profession all over the world, for the past hundred years, even back in the time of Dickens and Tolstoy, and for as long as man has been an emotional animal.
The emotional ranting and raging... what is it? It is the inadvertant loss of reason.
Famous physical trainer Michael Boyle seems to disagree with you.
Michael Boyle wrote:
Things to Avoid.
Avoid the surgeon. Surgeons do surgery. It is their business. Doctors work on what I call the 1-2-3 model or the three I's.
Inject- more anti-inflammatories
Incise- we all know what that means.
We want to avoid the 1-2-3 Model. If you keep going back and saying you are not improving, you will get surgery. Surgery should be the last resort. That means if you have not really committed to proper rehab avoid surgery. As we mentioned in part one some therapists theorize that the forced lay-off and attention to rehab post-surgery rather than pre-surgery is what actually helps. If athletes were willing to take time off and listen to the trainers and therapists, innumerable surgeries could be avoided. I have seen at least three professional athletes who were scheduled for surgery avoid it by committing to a proper rehab program of exercises and soft tissue work.
Never let a Doctor go in and "take a look around". That means they are unsure but, want to do surgery anyway. Usually this means they will go in, repair any small tear they see and often "release" the adductors. This in my mind only makes more scar tissue.
My feeling and the feeling of many of many therapist colleagues is that "sports hernia" surgery will be like the lateral release in the patella femoral joint, a surgery that had limited success and thankfully eventually went out of style.
Notice that Boyle doesn't suggest going to the doctor to "get a diagnosis", as your dogma/formula calls for, Albert.
Surf ..... Hypochondria......you just called out yourself to the T....TO THE T!!!!!....Look how many things you "think" you have had..Inguinal Hernia....Sports Hernia.....Labrum tear....muscle inbalance...and on and on ....The Internet is killing you
And as for Boyle ...who probably just has a general PT degree and Im sure is great with rehab stuff and knowing what all the muscles, Tendons and Ligaments do....BUT Id rather take the expertise of the Doctor who has done thousands of operations over 20+ years for this and gained knowledge 1st hand over all those years to get better and better at it to the point where his success rate is 96%, worked on Cadavers first hand...slicing and cutting there tendons to see what actually happens to what part of the body when a tendon tears or detaches........I doubt Boyle has even come close to any of that.....did ya ever think hes just maybe a good knowledgable PT thats taking the opputunity that the Internet presents to make MONEY on the Internet???????
SEE A DAMN DOCTOR AND GET A DIAGNOSIS BEFORE YOU GO CUTTING AND PASTING INTERNET JABER............GET SOME FACTS ON YOUR CONDITION OF WHAT YOU HAVE....WHAT IF YOU JSUT HAVE A BASIC INGUINAL HERNIA AND YOUR COCKEYED REHAB PROGRAM IS MAKING IT WORSE??????....IF YOU DONT HAVE AP YOU MAY BE WELL ON YOUR WAY TO GIVING YOURSELF A NICE CASE OF IT YOU IGNORANT FOOL
There are too many bad outcomes in surgery for sports hernia. Boyle is against any surgery for sports hernia. Says it should be treated by physical therapy only, not surgery.
Boyle on Sports Hernia I
Boyle on Sports Hernia II
Boyles stuff looks great for prevention or strains....but in my opinion and common sense should say if you have a Torn RA or Adductor Tendon you will destroy those tendons further doing that stuff...Once the Tendon is surgically repaired or magically heals on its own Boyles stuff looks good to do for rehab or prevention....AGAIN...that is why it is Important to know what you have first or you are at risk to do further damage to yourself....Not sure what is going On in your world that you wo8uldnt seek out a diagnosis...Im guessing no insurance or money...but Let us know when your self healed and playing Basketball again......If you get there Ill be teh first to say congrats...but until then or until you actually get a diagnosis I think your totally Retarted
Also if you go to the link under "Sprots Hernia 2"....right where he begins the rehab process at "PHASE 1"..On top of that it states that rehab is for 2 weeks Post Surgery!!!....another reason to be careful If you are going to use that protocol to try to rehab an already torn tendon...Know what you have...and use the appropiate protocol or you risk further damage like what happend to Albert and I....we both went to all these supposed great PT's who were going to fix us...but we or they didnt know at the time we had undiagnosed torn tendons...all that PT stuff did was further damage those tendons and threw us into further dysfunctions....#1 Key for everyone...Get firm diagnosis from the right Doctor (and theres only a handful of them)..of what you have!!!
Notice that Boyle doesn't suggest going to the doctor to "get a diagnosis", as your dogma/formula calls for, Albert.
Maybe he's not interested in wasting his article space on the obvious. You can't say because he doesn't mention it in an article that he doesn't suggest it. You really think he'll start treating people without some form of diagnosis - at least to rule out other causes?
It's amazing how hard headed you are on this issue. You need to know what is really wrong with you. I don't think anyone on the board is with you on this - you should really stop trying to justify not getting a diagnosis. Healing w/o surgery - I'm fine with you trying that, but not if you don't know what you're trying to heal.
NEUROTRANSMITTERS AND SPORTS HERNIA
Note: I am not a doctor. I have zero medical credentials.
In about 2006 I read In Search of Memory, the autobiography of Eric Kandel, who received the Nobel Prize for discovering how memory is stored in an animal’s brain (including the human animal). It was an interesting read, but not for the faint-hearted. As you are reading this sentence at LetsRun, your eyes and your brain are utilizing many brain cells and nerve cells, connecting with each other across thousands of synapses by squirting (emitting) tiny sprays of chemicals (neurotransmitters) towards each other that are then picked up by little receptors of the target nerve cell.
One person here at LetsRun who is contemplating surgery posted that he has never been a good runner, and even feels like a clown trying to run.
When an athlete is running down the basketball court, or running down the soccer field, or skating across the hockey rink, two complex processes are occurring hundreds of times per second in many muscles in his body: The stretch reflex and the golgi tendon organ action. It is not simple and easy to understand unfortunately, but important nevertheless.
Golgi Tendon Organ
Keep in mind that nerves, nerve cells and brain cells in animals function and communicate with each other using both electrical voltage (potentials, ions, etc.) and also neurotransmitter chemicals.
Famous neurotransmitters like dopamine, melatonin, serotonin, aspartic acid (related to Aspartame, the artificial sweetner). But there are many more neurotransmitter chemicals used by animals. Many are little understood, and some yet undiscovered.
Long before man existed on earth the process of muscular coordination had already been evolved by nature and made to be very robust. Herds of reindeer being chased down by packs of wolves. Each reindeer and wolf an athlete with almost perfect athletic coordination.
And man the athlete, too.
But it’s interesting that we can take a big 200 lb. man, a mass of muscle and bones, and have him swallow just a few drops of alcohol (with is NOT a neurotransmitter), and we will observe that he begins to slur his speech and stumble when he tries to run. A two hundred pound machine brought to its knees by a few grams of a seemingly harmless liquid. The alcohol hit him right in his weak spot, his achilles heel: It slightly interferred with his neurotransmitters. And down he goes.
So we see that although the wonderful neurotransmitter system of muscular coordination evolved by nature is wonderful and almost miraculous in an athlete, it is highly vulnerable to severe degradation by many chemicals not found in the natural food chain.
According to Eric Kandel’s book, if you’ve just read this sentence, its idea is stored in your short term memory. After about 2 hours, if you deem it important enough, it will automatically be reprocessed into your long term memory (which requires the synthesis of new protein). Otherwise it will be discarded.
So, I’ll stop here and continue tomorrow with a further introduction to my report on my sports hernia recovery progress.
My current objective is that all contributors to this excellent LetsRun thread will recover to good health quickly. I don’t discriminate between those that have had surgery and those who haven’t. All of us can recover if we each put away our emotions and engage our powers of reason (which of course utilizes/relies on neurotransmitters).
Tomorrow I'll post more.
RICK - Trust me, I know how incredibly frusterating and scary this is. It does seem like as soon as you wrap your head around it, you find new info to contradict it. But you have found in this site an incredible wealth of knowledge - these guys have been thru it for way longer than we have and can teach us so much.
SURF - I totally get that you do not want to have the surgery - I don't htink anyone on this forum wanted that. But - we all faced the fact that there was no other option for us.
As far as Mike Boyle goes - I actually emailed w/ him personally on the matter of rehab b/c I read his article that you posted on here. (if you post on a forum on his webiste strengthcoach.com - you might get to interact directly w/ him too) And do you know what he said - for me, surgery was the only option b/c my injury had gone on for so long and was past the point of repair thru rehab. No joke - he said that himself.
Also - when Dr Meyers told me I needed the adductor release - I asked if there was anythign I could do on my own so that I did not have to have that done. He siad if I stretched enough I might be able to pop the scar tissue myself. I was in pretty serious pain by that point - but I went home and stretched for hours - all 3 splits and then some- but there are some things that your body just cannot do on its own. I needed it to be surgically fixed.
I have read every medical document I can find on Athletic Pubalgia and there is only one study that has ever shown rehab to be effective - it was a 5 year rehab program and only worked for 60% of the patients. I myself make a living w/ my body (I am a dance professor at the university level, a choreographer and performer,and a Pilates teacher). So I could not spend 5 years hoping for the best. Even for those that are not pros that have this -they are mostly very active people and would be seriously losing quality of life if they could not use your bodies. The surgery has a 96% rate - why would you go for 60% in taht case?
Everyone keeps saying this - but the most important thing is to get it taken care of before it attacks the rest of your body. I am only 34 years old and now I have labral tears in both of my hips and also a very screwy SI joint. This would never have happened had I not wasted time trying to fix it on my own for 8 months. Like everyone else on here - I did everything - PT, Massage, Chiropractor. You cannot magically reattach muscle to bone w/ rest, ice and rehab.
SURF - you asked for success stories - I had a pretty major RA tear (went all the way up to under my ribs) and need 3 rows of sutures. I also needed the adductor release (had compartment syndrome where scar tissue fuses the muscles together - had 20 incisions in my adducotrs). I am not even 3 weeks post-op and every day I am:
1)walking a very fast 5-6 miles
2)doing an hour of pool exercises (running, swimming laps w/ just my legs, side slide, etc)
3) lifting weigths for upper body 30 minutes
4) lifting weights for lower body 45 minutes
5) I am already in a runner's lunge and the straddle splits
6) Running up and down the staris (I don't have access to a stair climber)
I feel like I could do more but don't want to push too hard too soon until the tissue is healed. I think that is pretty successful though for only 19 days out.
Surf - I know surgery sucks - but please try to understand that you are doing yourself and your body a diservice by waiting. Also - you are doing all of the new people on this site a diservice to spew out info that is not entirely true. Please don't say that all of these professional have healed w/out surgery when they don't even have AP. It is very misleading and unfair to someone who has trying to gather helpful info. I was TERRIFIED when I met Albert in Dr Meyer's waiting room b/c of some of the stuff I was reading on this site. I do think that everyone should be allowed to speak their mind - absolutely - but we are just saying to please make sure that you are not stating things as fact when they are just opinion.
Thansk to all of you for your help in understanding this very complex injury. thanks for all of the encouragement and support thru the rehab prcess! Tiff
One more thing:
A big concern I am reading from people who are contemplating surgery is - how do I know it will not happen again?
I think Albert is so right that we don't even realize what is going on in our bodies until something like this makes us stop and re-assess. For me - I was born w/ my legs completely rotated inward nad walking on the insides of my feet. The drs said I would never be able to run or even walk right. I was in full casts from hip to toe for a year to try to correct it. Then I became a Ballet dancer in which we force our hips to turn out constantly. AP has everything to do w/ the hips nad the pelvis being destabilized. I think this was waiting to happnen to me for a long time b/c I was not taking care of my body properly. I was not strengthening the muscles to counteract what I was using all day every day dancing.
I am going to do the FMS screening next week and will hopefuly have the same luck as Albert and some of the others w/ finding where my weaknesses and imbalances are and will be able prevent any further injuries by equally strengthening and stretching my body.
Couple questions fro anyone who has had AP surgery:
1) Did any of you have a sensitive hip bone post surgery? It is not movement induced, but hurts to touch. IT also feels like it is in the way when I am moving - but it is not swollen. Does that make any sense? It might be b/c i had a cortizone injection in my pelvic bone and it is still numb deep down.
2) When did you start strengthning the inner thighs - I have been doing the ab/adduction exercises but they don't get at it very deeply. There are some Pilates exercises where you lay on your side and lift the leg up - but I am afraid to try it yet.
3)What does it feel like when the scar tissue starts to break up in the abs? I have noticed a snapping sensation the past couple days. Also - I had been completely pain free - but now it is a bit sensitive in my abs when I am working out.
THANSK A TON!!! tiff
As long as we're quoting Mike Boyle, let's remember what he says in the article Understanding Sports Hernia and Understanding Adduction
He is very clear that if you do not deal with soft tissue injuries manually (with or without surgery), you will never truly address the issue. So with that being said, anyone who is rehabbing needs to take that into consideration. If I had known about Active Release Technique when I first was injured, I might have avoided surgery... can't say for sure. My physical therapy went terribly awry, likely because of the scar tissue that had developed over time. I can't dwell on that now. But you have the opportunity to explore it. Mike is saying that you can't expect to heal properly on your own with rehab alone. He is calling specifically for manual therapy.
In my opinion, Mike is speaking in terms of realizing the injury and utilizing soft tissue management before it turns into RA tears, tendon tears, and adductor tears. If you told him that you had any or all of those problems, he probably would say it is too late to avoid surgery. Many of the folks on this website were beyond that stage.
When I read all the posters here, which are expressing opinions and which are expressing facts?
As the Nobel prize winner Kandel says in his autobiography, which discusses the high level of debate in all fields of serious science, said this:
Science proceeds by and endless and ever refining cycles of conjecture and refutation. The greatest strength of the scientific method is its ability to disprove an hypothesis.
Life itself, and especially biological systems, is so complex that it can never be fully understood by the human mind. Thus when one reads the papers of scientists, e.g., Albert Einstein, Eric Kandel, Michael Faraday, Max Born, etc., or any convention of physicists, one sees fierce heated debate, yet a gradual discovery of more and more truth.
I gather that some posters here at LetsRun feel that their own posts are facts, but the posts of others are opinions.
The scientific community, even back to Roger Bacon, or back further to Aristotle, would say that all of us have erroneous, simplistic views, and that all we can do is make conjectures. The conjectures and subsequent refutations are what lead us toward improving understanding.
I don't think anybody here is entitled to being viewed as anything BUT opinion.
Please consider anything I say to be mere conjecture. Please always, always take everything I say with a grain of salt. Books, teachers, newspapers, even fact books -- I always take everything with a grain of salt. It's called critical thinking.
I happened to read a book last week by a PHD from Cornell. He said the first post-graduate program there, the Masters degree program, spends the whole 2 years training the student how to think critically. Only when the reach the Doctorate (PHD) level, does the student begin orininal research.
But anyway, I consider everything I read everywhere to be opinion, so I'm not offended that you consider my posts to be opinion. That's exactly what they are.
By the way, I'm still interested in your suggestions on improving the Meyer rehab that you alluded to last week, and am very glad your here. Wishing you a speedy recovery that will give added hope to us all, tiff.
Your pain is going to bounce around. That is just the nature of surgery. I remember I was getting tightness on the other side and worried that I maybe had a tear there too. Also had the hip pain also. Both have gone. I still get tender in the RA surgery side but less and less. I am doing planks and not as strong as you so I feel it. I think it is a necessary evil of inflammation. I too have days of pain free on my surgery side. Alot of them. I especially have not had any tightness in the adductors in a long time.
When my scar tissue popped it was in the pool and felt like a crunch. I remember it twice and was nervous but next day felt looser. Mine did not bruise but others do.
I do not think i had that in my ab area.
I just started lifting weights and very light. Not because of the surgery, but because I was a heaby lifter prior and want to get away from that. According to my FMS guy I hip hike on my opposite side (a compensatory issue) so I have a tendency to tighten on that side. I am following his protocol to a T.
I really think you will be pleased with the FMS assess,ent. I guarantee you will score well but will be surprised in other areas. The beauty of it is that the assessment does not assess weak muscles, but weak movement patterns. The way to fix a weak muscle is force it to adapt to the pattern.
Peter Egoscue also believes in functional movement patterns. It is not enough to just move...but to move functionally. I think by doing this you are putting your body in the best position possible moving forward to not reinjuure. At some point we all must had a dysfunction that simply was perpetuated by an incident or series of incidents.
Mine was I was I had freakish strength. Where I could lift alot of weight and lift heavy heavy objects. However, my core was very weak and when i used a rotary motion all hell cut loose.
I have no idea what you posted other than quoting some novelists and talking about hypochondria.
I think you should take Tiff at her word since she put things a little more (well alot more) eloquently than I. It is not FAIR for you to post these scare tactics. She is an educated and atheltic woman who I am sure is very confident in her body/movements. Yet, when i saw her she was scared. That is not right. Her husband assured her that most success stories are living their lives and although my injury was old and my rehab slower I think she was encouraged after she saw me and we talked.
I think Tiff had a very similar injury as me since we both have larger incisions and mine travels upward. Only dfffernce is mine was 4.5 years and i do not know how long hers was injured. What i do know is her back was starting to bother her when i saw her. Now, it is probably fine, whereas mine was over-worked for years now is hypersensitive and weak. After i walk 4 miles it tightens as well as my glutes. That is what FMS is addressing.
Dialog is great. I do not think anyone thinks they have the market cornered on knowledge since the injury has so many components. I know Surf directed that comment to me. We all can dig up articles. I also know Mike Boyle and he uses the FMS as a starting point for his athletes. However, he is not a surgeon who specializes in this.
Surf....I just feel bad for you dude.
One thing I noticed is Surf rarely answers any questions that are brought to him....You can ask him a question and he will just respond with quotes from articles that dont even pertain to the question....Lets see how he does with these
1) Why have you not tried to get a diagnosis ?
2) If you decide to get one who will you go to and when ?
3) How are you feeling and where are your symptoms at this time ?
4) What rehab protocol are you currently using ?....exercises...stretches...times per week etc ?
Simple questions ...so step up to the plate and have a go at it.....Maybe with a few answers we can better understand where your at.....cause I for one am totally lost on you
Tiff asked: 2) When did you start strengthning the inner thighs - I have been doing the ab/adduction exercises but they don't get at it very deeply. There are some Pilates exercises where you lay on your side and lift the leg up - but I am afraid to try it yet.
I'm not sure exactly which exercise you are referring to, but I have tried the one in this video for inner thigh and adductor. I didn't have much pain with it so I started it about 3 weeks post surgery. Additionally, I have a modified version with knees bent, feet on the ground with a 3/4 deflated soccer ball where you squeeze your knees together. This can be done with a pillow also, but not quite as effective. Hopefully, that is less confusing than the email I sent you on the hip flexor stretch.
I just started this excercise as well. I am also doing band excercises:
1) Bridges with legs out against bands
2) Deep squats
3) Side Walking
I also do alot of leg swings, planks, multi-plane lunges, split leg squats,push-ups