HRE & Others: Critique This 1:59 800m Base Plan

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This is not a base plan, this is a burnout recipe.

Any plan is meaningless without knowing what your genetic baseline is. Or at least what your previous best is and the degree of training that was needed to achieve that.

It definitely is not a "Lydiard" plan so I'm really curious as to why you want input from Lydiard guys.

At any rate, it's hard to say anything about tthis without knowing much more about your background, fitness, and so on. For example, I don't know how hard or easy 6:00 pace is for you or how old you are, how long you've been running, what your current times are or what your reasoning behind this is.

MrGambinus wrote:

This is not a base plan, this is a burnout recipe.

How? Everything seems to be well within himself and with full recovery.

One thing I will say though is I think your sprint days (5x50m, etc) may need to be farther apart to recover your CNS properly.

aerobicevolution wrote:

Every morning: 30-60 minutes of TRUE JOGGING (Clear lactate, limber up, etc.)

To start with, the daily easy run in the morning sounds good. Although with basically every Kenyan runner alive employing this, it is not exactly Lydiard(tm) training.

I hate to break it to you, but there is no "clearing lactate" involved in this run. Lactic acid levels normalize very quickly (although ability to buffer it takes longer). Soreness/fatigue/heaviness you may feel any given morning have NOTHING to do with "lactate" that needs "clearing."

Reading "Run to the Top" I think it was, I found some inspiration. The stuff Snell and those guys did was NOT 100mpw of slow distance. It was 100mpw not far below tempo effort, IN ADDITION to 30-60 minutes of jogging in the AM. I am acting like a middle schooler who is building a base starting about 10mpw, and that is about how true running I will be doing at first, 13mpw @ 6:00 pace supplemented by jogging. I am choosing 6:00 pace because of Lydiard's advice of "comfortably fast" without becoming "breathless", and able to "repeat the same day after day".

Short sprints, with fully recovery, are almost entirely alactic and Lydiard recommended them 2-4 times a week to develop and maintain leg speed. I believe he recommended alternating 45m efforts w/ 100m repeats.

Again, I'm not really sure why taking Lydiard's advice in small ways matters to you. Certainly he wouldn't think you'd maximize your 800 potential on the low volume you're planning but as you say, it's not a "Lydiard" plan. I just really am puzzled as to why you're looking to his ideas for a plan he wouldn't like very well.

No matter, I think the real base building that you're doing will come from those morning "jogs." The more of them you get into the 60 minute range the better but they'll all help. The hill bounds will probably take more out of you than the 50 meter sprints if you give yourself full recovery after them. You could make them real killers by shortening the recovery but that wouldn't be consistent with base building. Similarly, the slow intervals will help with base building. I can't comment on whether the paces seem right or not because I don't know what's hard running for you but if you have a real shot at 1:59 35 and 79 shouldn't leave you gasping for air. More reps would probably be better as would runs of longer than 2-3 miles but you obviously don't want to get into going much longer.

This would be more like a training plan for 60 meters...for a masters sprinter with 55 sec 400 speed and ~ 8 sec 60m speed.

For 800 you need either aerobic power if you're endurance oriented (ex,. 1600-1200-800-600-400 breakdown), or you need special endurance if you're 400/800 (ex., 5X600 5% slower than 800 pace).

You really don't have anything but short sprint training (4X4 @ 79 would be considered to be extensive tempo to a pure sprinter and 5X50 twice a week is something a 60 meter specialist might do). You might get a PR for indoor sprints, but I think your 800 would suck.

vxcvxcv wrote:

How? Everything seems to be well within himself and with full recovery.

He has not given any PRs but i assume he is an endurance based 800m runner with decent speed. He WANTS to hit 159 so this is a plan for someone at around 2:02-2:05 shape.

Every morning 30-60 minute run is the easy mileage part. Adds up to ok'ish mileage for a younger 800 guy.

Now there are DOUBLES added on top of this which are basically 2 sessions of tempo (which is 2 miles in 12 minutes for this caliber of runner), 1 extra hard day (time trial), strides and 2x800 are around mile pace which makes this 2x800 still relatively hard.

All of this in 6 days and meant to be repeated every week.

If you are not running for more than 5 years or have serious base mileage under your belt this is too much for the body.

Do only the 45-60minutes morning sessions with strides directly afterwards and add only one hard PM workout and race on weekend. This is enough for young bodies. (Again, assumption is the above)

correction: 5 sessions of light tempo, skipped the part that you plan on doing them nearly on a daily basis.

HRE wrote:

More reps would probably be better as would runs of longer than 2-3 miles but you obviously don't want to get into going much longer.

But I DO want to go longer... much longer. And the reps will become longer as well. But, as I said, I am building a base from the BOTTOM, and not going slowly in any of my main sessions: I either want to work out or not. The jogging is not a workout per se.

Coach D: You are correct, and that is part of my rationale. I WANT to develop top end speed during my base phase. I is rather equivalent in priority to me as aerobic capacity is at this point. I will add in the cut backs as you mentioned and other more lactic work later on.

Its endurance first, not speed first.

If it helps, these are my last 2 workouts, which were pretty moderate efforts:

Tuesday: 50:00 steady, followed by Interval Session: 30X12s hill sprints (avg. ~80yd./70m each) w/ 20s recovery; 2X100m in 14.83 & 16.55 uphill; 5:00 EZ cd.

Today: 8.53 miles in 60:00 w/ 46:40 fartlek

Fartlek: 20s ON/ 2:00 OFF

ONs averaged 130yds/120m ~4:30 pace; OFFs avg. ~7:20 pace

It was only in the single digits both mornings, and 3 layers of clothes haven't been very conducive to fast running.

MrGambinus wrote:

Its endurance first, not speed first.

why does either have to be 'first'? why not work both?

Periodization. 'working on speed' means one short hill session/bounding and some strides for the middle and long distances.

If you moved up from the 400 the focus might shift a little bit but after all the events are endurance based so endurance should be your main dish while adding a little portion of speed to refine the taste.

You can reach 90% of your potential just off the 'easy miles' and strides. People underrate it.

MrGambinus wrote:

You can reach 90% of your potential just off the 'easy miles' and strides. People underrate it.

Maybe even 95%. However "speed" can be added right away. Slow running doesn't do much to prepare any part of the body for the stress of speed. Only actually doing it accomplishes that.

That means strides right away and then gradually tightening the screws on making those strides all out sprints.

Generally if your goal is to run faster on longer runs you'll get better results getting to your desired distance and then allowing yourself to run faster as the greater distance makes you fitter. I tried what you're planning once and it went nowhere but was able to drop my typical training pace from 7:30-8:00 to around 6:00 in about three years by concentrating on building up the miles first.