13yo 800 runner potential

good training plan, and I agree with your last point. keep focusing on speed and more aerobic training will come with time. What you have for aerobic stuff looks pretty good, but may I suggest an intense 5km-7km run every 2 weeks or so?

55.00 400m capability at age 13 is very impressive, so focus on his strengths...1st & 2nd lap differential doesn't matter if the athlete is running good times, and young runners should have bigger differentials anyways if they are putting in really fast times.

This kid looks like a future stud, with what you have given me he looks like he could go under 2:05 which is highly impressive at his age.

For his first serious attempt I would suggest to tell him to take the first lap out right around or just under 60 seconds, and see what he can do with the rest.

Sorry - by differential I mean difference between 400 time and average 800 lap time. So a 400 PB of 54.0 and an 800 time of 2.04 (average lap 62) is an 8 second differential.

He hasn't quite hit an 800 right yet, but tends to run well with negative splits believe it or not. Part of it might be that he doesn't have the guts to push the first lap yet. He's a racer, likes to have something in the tank near the end. Might try to get him to a lower meet and tell him to crank a 61 first lap and see what happens.

Still need to get his form consistent under pressure, he can tighten up. Has a beautiful stride when on.

There are 13yos here running 53s, but they're men. 54/55 is very good for a 13yo on normal physical development.

Interesting idea on that 5-7km run every now and then. Might try to work that in. I've also sometimes used an intense vVo2max session (eg 2 mins @ 2km speed, 2 mins recovery @ half that speed, x 7) to shock some intense fitness in, maybe every 2-3 weeks. Too tough to do that too often, esp at his age. I sort of figure they only need a certain amount of aerobic fitness, but they need to be able to handle intense aerobic work in an 800.

I see longer runs only having an indirect benefit for an 800 runner - by giving them the general fitness to do tough sessions like 6 x 1km hard on 2 mins rest. I don't see much direct benefit 800 runners get out of a long run, more the training to train benefit.

old runner dude wrote:

This kid looks like a future stud, with what you have given me he looks like he could go under 2:05 which is highly impressive at his age.

For his first serious attempt I would suggest to tell him to take the first lap out right around or just under 60 seconds, and see what he can do with the rest.

Yeah he's got a lower key race in January, when he'll have 4-6 weeks of specific 800 work (once a week) under his belt. It's a race he should win easily, so I'm intending getting him to really push it out.

It's a change in mindset, he's a natural sit-kicker. He's learning to lead, but never pushes it hard enough early. It'll come as he learns about it as he gets older.

I'd be ecstatic with a 2.05 this summer at his level of development. It sounds theoretically possible, but that's quick. He went 2.12 4 months ago, but it was windy and he went out in 67, way too slow. I think he had 2.09ish in him then.

Tourist wrote:

Just ran a 400 in 55.0, will probably get down to 54 flat this season with more speed work. Runs about 12.40 for 100 and 24.70 for 200, though I expect that 200 time to get down to low-mid 24s this season.

A few months ago was in 4.30 1500 shape (I guess 4.50 mile). Aerobically can go 6 x 1km on the 5 minutes in about 3.40 average, on a trail (so 70-80 secs' rest).

This is all you needed to post. Very impressive for 13 or just about any age for that matter. Low 2:00s perhaps, but I worry that you want it more than he does? Could be totally wrong and just misinterpreting your post. And as you have correctly observed, less is better at this age. Hopefully he is exploring other sports as well? At his age, no need to "work" on anything. Just have him run and race a bit and have fun with it. The time for him to decide how serious he wants to be about it right around the corner. Good luck.

Yeah, he plays rugby in winter which is his first love (sport wise). He loves running too, but not longer stuff, which is one of the reasons I keep things short and sharp. Got to keep him liking the sport.

I only do some of his training, he trains in another group for sprints and strength, with a lot of friends. It's a good, fun, healthy environment.

Ca$hclay wrote:

At his age, no need to "work" on anything. Just have him run and race a bit and have fun with it. The time for him to decide how serious he wants to be about it right around the corner. Good luck.

Sorry I meant to ask a question on this. I might be misreading it, but surely a coach's job is to "work" on all sorts of things, to improve them? Form, strategies, aerobic fitness, speed, core strength etc? Try to iron out flaws, both physical and psychological? I certainly work very hard on form. If you get this right at a young age, an athlete can pick up with little training and be running well. Running with a smooth, efficient form is as important as fitness and too often overlooked.

I actually don't think he needs to get serious for another couple of years, but he does track as his summer sport at school, so there's a decent element of training there already.

As for taking it seriously, yes I can see a lot of potential. But I am also looking longer term, so I need to keep it fun and not work him too hard. Some kids thrive on lots of hard work, but he's not one of them. He's your classic sprinter type middle distance runner and I don't see Lydiard or Kenyan type approaches working with him, even if he goes on with it as an adult.

the guts to push the first lap will come with time and experience (not to mention more endurance/aerobic fitness)

As for the 5-7km run, since he is of younger age you could bump it down to a 3200-4k run which is what I do for my juniors. I have my athletes do this once every 2 or 3 weeks, and it is supposed to be run at close to maximum effort. I think its a good method for developing aerobic fitness but still not going "too slow", I really like it for my 800/1500/5k guys. Alot of my 400/800 guys can't run well at distances much longer than 5k, so a fast 3-4k is a good training tool and the athletes don't see it as too long or too slow.

All good points and yes, definitely things to work on. You might get some debate on the form/fitness statement, but I see what you mean. The more subtle approach the better probably. Not so sure he should even have a coach right now, but what do I know?

My concern I suppose is him peaking @ 13 with nowhere to go for the years that really matter. 2:02 this year and then what? Some bias to disclose here as I was pretty fast 14 year old (4:40 1600) who saw decent gains later in life, but never realized my full potential ( IMO at least). As long as the focus is on the things you point out and not the watch, I'd say you're doing it right. Sounds like you have a fast one on your hands. Best of luck.

Yeah I'm not so keen on longer slower runs. I always like to keep the tempo crisp.

He should be able to handle 405km at a decent pace, as should the others.

Ca$hclay wrote:

My concern I suppose is him peaking @ 13 with nowhere to go for the years that really matter. 2:02 this year and then what? Some bias to disclose here as I was pretty fast 14 year old (4:40 1600) who saw decent gains later in life, but never realized my full potential (IMO at least). As long as the focus is on the things you point out and not the watch, I'd say you're doing it right. Sounds like you have a fast one on your hands. Best of luck.

Totally agree on peaking too early, hence keeping lower volume, short and sweet. The same thing doesn't work for everyone and I think the best advice I've seen is "coach the athlete, not the event". Keep their strengths strong, and gradually work on their weaknesses.

There is a lot of scope to increase training loads as he develops. I don't intend training a 13yo like a 16yo and I think the program is a good balance of pushing him a bit but not too much.

I don't think the time he runs now marks him as peaking too early. It's all relative. For example he'll run a lot faster than 54/55 when he grows in the next few years.

Quick update, and Happy New Year from NZ.

A couple of recent sessions suggest this athlete's capable of 2.05-2.06 this summer. Interested what others think, esp. those with knowledge of younger runners (this kid is still 13 turning 14).

As I said, he did 2 x 6 x 200, with 30 secs' rest, in 30-31s. Has also more recently done 2 x 3 x 300, with a 1 min jog/walk between reps and 5-6 mins between sets. Did 46-46-47 in the 1st set, then 46-47-48 2nd set.

Today did 2 x 2 x 400, with 2 mins between reps and 5 mins between sets. Will be cutting down recoveries during the season, as he's just started the lactic work with peak in late Feb/early March. Today did 62-high, 62-high, then next set 64-high (the target speed, at that age the 1st and last 200s tend to be the fastest)) then 62-high to finish. Found it comfortable (comparatively) aerobically, tougher on the legs.

Good session with the 400s today all things considered, with a bit of wind around. Some of the other kids struggled with it.

Sunday run is down to 37 1/2 for a bit over 5 1/2 miles, with an easyish mile followed by the last 4 1/2 miles or so at about 6.20-30 speed. I find that's hard enough for youth runners, and long enough, esp for middle distance types. For the younger athletes I like to start them easier and almost run a tempo for the last 20 mins or so, but slower than lactic threshold. Most younger guys don't need the longer slog, except the real distance types who thrive on it (yes there are some, even at 12-14).

I know some will wonder why push 13-14yos at all, but some of these kids are on "academic" scholarships and need to keep performing. My goal is to keep their performances up, whilst keeping them interested and enoying it, and not pushing them too hard. I do the middle distance part, but I make sure they keep working with the sprinters and doing strength work. This is enough to give them the tools to make it when they're older, if they choose to follow that path.

Tourist wrote:

I'm trying to get him down to a 7-8 second differential this season (difference between 400/800 speed). I don't think you can get down to 6 until you're well through puberty and strong enough, or unless you don't have a lot of speed. At 54 for 400 and a 7 second differential, that puts him in 2.02 shape this summer, and that's I think the best case scenario.

Just a quick word on how the season finished up.

He ran 54.5 whilst (just) still 13. Then just after he turned 14, he went 53.9 and 2.03. My estimates were about bang on. We managed a 7.5 second differential between his 400 PR and average lap time of his 800, which I'm very happy with for a young speed-based middle distance runner.

I'm happy that the low mileage speed based program seems to be paying off, because it keeps him fresh physically and mentally. I try to get maximum aerobic benefit from the minimum training.