Antonio Cabral wrote:
This shows that in 800m at the olympic and world level Lydiard training despite some say it´s so good the maker of champions, however didn´t show not any special supremacy.
Antonio, how should one train instead of treshold for 800m?? You keep avoiding this answer.
Who cares about Lydiard, its old history.
Toro,
You asked a few questions a while back that didn't get answered. Sometimes it looks like I answer for Antonio. I don't have any right or privilege to speak for Antonio, so these answers are completely my understanding.
What is complete recovery? Generally short recovery is incomplete and long is complete. (You could argue that really COMPLETE recovery requires 2 days, or after a marathon 30-45 days -- we don't talk about that kind of completeness for interval training.) A loose rule of thumb is, equal time recovery is short, while equal distance recovery is long. Short recoveries are better for "aerobic" training, while longer ones are better for "anaerobic" training. If you are smart like Antonio, you'll customize these recoveries for the athlete. If you have any doubts about interval training, Antonio wrote a very good "history of intermittent training" thread in the early history of Letsrun (some 8-10 years ago).
What does Antonio mean by resistance? This is a kind of measure of endurance. If you double your distance, how much speed can you keep? If you compare two runners:
A: 400m=60s, 800m=2:05
B: 400m=55s, 800m=2:10
Runner A wins at 800m because he has better resistance, despite his lower 400m speed. If you train Runner B's resistance then he can run 1:55. (OK, train Runner A for speed too, then he runs 1:58).
Antonio has been reluctant in the past to come forward with personal or specific advice, but he did explain quite well in the past, the concept of incorporating SPECIFICITY in all the phases of training. Lydiard for example, has many GENERAL phases, trying to develop individual qualities one at a time, before emphasizing SPECIFICITY in the lastest COORDINATION phase the final weeks before racing. SPECIFICITY means running race speed (95%-105%) for race +/- distance (might be broken up in reps). This might mean initially workouts like 8x100m at 800m pace, that PROGRESS to 200m reps and so on. Canova has given the best practical examples of how to progress from GENERAL to SPECIAL to SPECIFIC workouts. But be careful as he works with a different class of athlete already highly developed AEROBICALLY. During GENERAL phases, your workouts are designed to increase INTENSITY (develop your racing speed), and then in later phases, you maintain this INTENSITY while working on EXTENDING the time you can maintain that INTENSITY. So in this approach, even during the very first weeks of a GENERAL AEROBIC phase, you start to incorporate workouts dictated by your target 800m race pace. Also in this approach, any 2-hour run for a 2-minute racer, is considered too far away from race conditions to be interesting, even indirectly. Why would the 800m runner need to learn how to coax glycogen out of unused fast twitch muscle fibers?
3 mistakes in one post.
First. 1 minute intereval recovery as a rule of thumb, your rule of thumb not mine.
Second. Top class runner with already highly developed AEROBICALLY, no, thry got best anaerobic and perhaps aerobic, not aerobic.
Third. Complete recovery from one marathon takes 30-45 days, don´t you think is quickly recovery ? Might be q to 2 years.
Then some folks they say i spoil every Lydiard debate attempt because i move to different matters. But it was you that move from Lydiard to my training in this case.
i will come back soon.
Resistance is simply the ability to delay/sustain a certain speed pace during one long distance without the minimum of pace decresete. It´s gained trough specific training. You can do whatever aerobic training you think its necessary, however the new frontier of training methodology is to use during a season many periods of specific training and perform many training workouts of specific training, because it´s the kind of training that leads to better resistance.
Athletes able to get good resistance, never have to spend long time without specific training, because if they don´t train specifics they losing a part of what before they were able to build.
For instance one runner like kenyan Bungei he runs about 1 hour maximum a few days day per week, during Kenya winter, but meantime during that period in the way to improve his aerobic power he uses workouts like this: 10 kilo total with 3X2k intervals in about 6:00min (3:00min/k pace) with interval recovery of 2000m in about 6:40min (3:20min/k pace). Also during the same winter period he does for instance 7X1000m in about 2:40-2:45min/kilo pace. Or this is the way to be as fast as sub 1:44 in 800m.
To imagine that one runner like David Rudisha or Kaki takes the winter season doing just aerobics and at the final stage they do intervals then on a limited period of weeks before competition “a la Lydiard” that is something stupid.
Antonio Cabral wrote:
Third. Complete recovery from one marathon takes 30-45 days, don´t you think is quickly recovery ? Might be q to 2 years.
Yuki Kawauchi's 2012 race schedule:
Mari Tanigawa Half-Marathon, Tokyo, 1/8/12 - 1:06:19 - 2nd
Okumusashi Ekiden 6th Stage, 9.283 km, Hanno, 1/29/12 - 27:15 - 1st
Kagawa Marugame International Half-Marathon, Kagawa, 2/5/12 - 1:02:18 - 27th - PB
Tokyo Marathon, Tokyo, 2/26/12 - 2:12:51 - 14th
Saitama Half-Marathon, Saitama, 3/12/12 - 1:04:26 - 1st
Satte Sakura 10-Mile Road Race, Satte, 4/1/12 - 48:07 - 2nd
Yaizu Minato Half-Marathon, Yaizu, 4/8/12 - 1:03:48 - 2nd
Kasumigaura Marathon, Tsuchiura, 4/15/12 - 2:22:38 - 1st
Dusseldorf Marathon, Dusseldorf, 4/29/12 - 2:12:58 - 8th
Nittai University Time Trials 5000 m Heat 18, Yokohama, 5/6/12 - 14:00.02 - 4th
Sendai International Half-Marathon, Sendai, 5/13/12 - 1:03:49 - 4th
Gifu Seiryu Half-Marathon, Gifu, 5/20/12 - 1:04:13 - 12th
Kurobe Meisui Half-Marathon, Kurobe, 5/27/12 - 1:05:38 - 2nd
Sakuranbo Half-Marathon, Higashine, 6/10/12 - 1:05:34 - 1st
Okinoshima 50 km Ultra, Okinoshima, 6/17/12 - 2:51:45 - 1st - CR
Gold Coast Marathon, Brisbane, 7/1/12 - 2:13:26 - 4th
Hokuren Distance Challenge Abashiri Meet 5000 m, Abashiri, 7/7/12 - 14:09.37 - 25th
Shibetsu Half-Marathon, Shibetsu, 7/22/12 - 1:05:00 - 1st
Kushiro Shitsugen 30 km Road Race, Kushiro, 7/29/12 - 1:35:02 - 1st
Nihonkai Melon Half-Marathon, Oga, 8/5/12 - 1:06:15 - 1st
Hokkaido Marathon, Sapporo, 8/26/12 - 2:18:38 - 1st
Harunako Ekiden 4th Stage, 5.5 km, Harunako, 9/2/12 - 15:48 - 1st - CR
Sydney Marathon, Sydney, 9/16/12 - 2:11:52 - 1st - CR
Nittai University Time Trials 1500 m Heat 12, Yokohama, 9/22/12 - 3:50.51 - 1st - PB
Nittai University Time Trials 5000 m Heat 37, Yokohama, 9/23/12 - 13:58.62 - 7th - PB
World Half-Marathon Championships, Kavarna, 10/6/12 - 1:04:04 - 21st
Chiba Aqualine Marathon, Chiba, 10/21/12 - 2:17:48 - 1st
Joshu Ota Subaru Half-Marathon, Ota, 10/28/12 - 1:05:55 - 1st
Hasuda 3 km Road Race, Hasuda, 11/3/12 - 8:44 - 1st
Oshu Maezawa 30 km Road Race, Oshu, 11/4/12 - 1:33:12 - 1st
Ageo City Half-Marathon, Ageo, 11/18/12 - 1:03:02 - 3rd
Fukuoka International Marathon, Fukuoka, 12/2/12 - 2:10:29 - 6th
JBMA Jingu Gaien 10 km Road Race, Tokyo, 12/9/12 - 38:04 - guest appearance
Hofu Yomiuri Marathon, Hofu, 12/16/12 - 2:10:46 - 1st
etc.....
I thought putting the disclaimer that my post was completely my own understanding would be clear enough.First (mistake): Huh? I expressly said you would do something else smarter. And I never said "1 minute interval recovery".Second: OK, have it your way. "Be careful (interpreting Canova's examples) as he works with a different class of athlete already highly developed."Third: OK, you could also argue TWO YEARS, but "we don't talk about that kind of completeness for interval training". Does one really ever completely recover from a marathon? Really completely?How did I move on to different matters? These matters were already there:- "wncmtnrnr" talked about "complete recovery" and "ToroToro" asked what that really means.- "Antonio Cabral" talked about "resistance", and "ToroToro" asked what that really means.- "ToroToro" also asked "Antonio Cabral", at the same time, "What kind of training improves resistance for an 800m runner?""ToroToro" asked 3 questions, two of them directed at you, for which I gave 3 direct responses. I didn't move the debate anywhere but forward.I didn't talk about your training at all, except only to say that you are reluctant to talk about your training at all. I directed "ToroToro" to look at some Canova threads, to get an alternative approach to Lydiard.Some supplemental info (coming from me and my understanding):Here is the thread I mentioned previously, about "intermittent training":http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=825534Another "loose" rule of thumb, for HR monitor wearers, to determine complete recovery is to let the HR drop to 120 bpm. I'll leave it as an exercise to all the readers, whose rule of thumb this is not.
Antonio Cabral wrote:
3 mistakes in one post.
First. 1 minute intereval recovery as a rule of thumb, your rule of thumb not mine.
Second. Top class runner with already highly developed AEROBICALLY, no, thry got best anaerobic and perhaps aerobic, not aerobic.
Third. Complete recovery from one marathon takes 30-45 days, don´t you think is quickly recovery ? Might be q to 2 years.
Then some folks they say i spoil every Lydiard debate attempt because i move to different matters. But it was you that move from Lydiard to my training in this case.
i will come back soon.
To jono wrote:
jono wrote:Chris, I appreciate your point of view and thaks for stating it. However, if you want Lydiardism to survive through the twenty first century, then I think that some terminology has to be explained. And anyway, what was called 'Anaerobic training' by just about every middle and long distance running coach over the last 50 years is mostly deifinitely high intensity aerobic. Why do you think it makes you breathe so hard? It's a combination of high oxygen uptake pluse excess CO2 production. Yes the excess comes from anaerobic respiration however it's the slow build up of acidosis plus the high oxygen uptake that causes this.
Now the most important part of the science lecture, you can run even faster for the same distances without this over breathing. A good combination of both methods is ideal.
You don't see the top athletes in any track racing distance getting out of breath in a race these days. Why do you think that is? Sometimes it's EPO but often it's just better conditioning pluse a more extensive warm up. This mean that oxygen can be delivered without hyperventilating. You have run like this sometimes haven't you? We all have. Think about that and maybe you will get an epiphany?
1. Whats the right use of the words jono? Any examples of workouts would make it easier to understand. What are these commonly called anaerobic workouts that really are aerobic? And isn't a workout anaerobic if you get high lactate?
2. Interesting what you are saying about 'out of breath'. Is this better explained somewhere in here (by you or others?) or would you be able to do it here/in a new thread?
************************************************
You can get high lactate in a 5000m race, but that is still mostly aerobic. The lactate is accumulating gradually over the course of the race. When lactate accumulates rapidly so that the source of ATP is glycolysis/glycogenolysis, that is mostly anaerobic, as happnes in 100-400m races.
When lactate is produced, there is another energy source released at the same time which fuels the muscles anaerobicallly, these sources are glycolytic ATP which is produced from blood glucose supply to the muscles and glycogenolytic ATP which is produced directly from muscle glycogen. The lacate produced at the same time goes either to local mitochondria for aerobic respiration or to mitochondria in another muscle for aerobic respiration, or it goes to the liver for reconversion to glycogen.
Yes breathing control is worth another thread in its own right. The reason why the 1.41 800 runners or Michael Johnson running 43 in the 400 weren't getting out of breath is partly because they don't overtrain and partly because they have more spring in their stride in the last 100 meters of the race and so they don't have to fight acidosis as much. Runners who go too far into acidosis in training can't race efficiently because the same thing happens in a race.
Touche.
Cabral is full of himself, and his posts are full of mistakes, he lacks the understanding of basic physiology.
U.N.O. wrote:
jono wrote:Aerobic capacity is a combination of genetics plus a healthy heart. If this was not true then (absolute)VO2 max would just keep rising and rising as we train harder, when in fact it doesn't rise beyond normal values.
You assume that aerobic capacity is the VO2max, but how then we can still improve a lot after the VO2max has been plateaued. Isn´t that because of the rise of the lactate threshold, and maybe running economy. Lifting the LT to a higher % of the VO2max (LT @ 80-90% of VO2max has been reported in elite endurance athletes) means that we can use more muscles "aerobically" than before, and if this is not increasing aerobic capacity then what it is. The higher LT will also lift the running time to exhaustion at 100% vVO2max, etc. If you previously was capable of running 6minutes at 100% vVO2max, and after imroving the LT you can run 6minutes 30seconds at 100% vVO2max, for example, if this doesn´t mean that your aerobic capacity has improved then what does it mean.
Obviously the problem is on the terminology, the meaning of the term aerobic capacity seems to be different to you than it´s to me.
******************************************************
Yes, better economy.
Antonio Cabral wrote:
Let get out from The stupid method, THE aerobic first equals to The stupid first, or the The aerobic just = the just stupid.
Besides, slogans pamphletary sentences, advertising and demagogy with no evidence, is not the main intention of this board. Also if someone wants to inform about his personal llfe, for instance, the one who he married, the anonymous ones one he coaches, we got the twitter, the facebook, and other kind of chatting and other vanities, i guess this is not the right place.
Lets´s see if i´m right or wrong about speed (pure speed), the ability to faster the fast to personal maximum during some seconds, at the final of the race for example.
Let´s start with one significative example. The 800m in the olympics.
1972 Olympic 800m Final.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LHid-nC45kCan you tell us what´s the runner that the of each one of his 8X100m splits was slower than than the faster 100m of all finalists ? Yes, David Wottle the winner that did win 1:45.86 he did split every 100m in between 12.8 and 13.6sec. 12.8 his fast 100m split is slower than the best of everybody else of the runner finalists. Wottle last 100m were not very fast as we might be betrayed while see the images. Simply he did manage his pace the way he never enter in a pathway related to his condition and he was able to maintain near the same pace event from the start to the finish. He was able to do so, because he was a talented runner of course, but also because he possess best resistance and anaerobic power, it´s not his aerobic condition or lactate threshold that might help him you at the pace they go, and on the other extreme of the kind of run ability, it´s not (pure) speed or biomechanics or coordination that might helped him to win that one. So what´s ? It´s resistance, the ability to delay the pace at a certain high intensity, and that quality is gained directly neither from aerobics, neither from speed. It´s gained and enhanced from specific training first instance.
Let´s move to one recent example. If we analyse the last 800m world record that was done in the last London Olympics what´s the speed that one runner like David Rudisha got that the other runners don´t ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKEOjWEzVGsWhat the ability that made him run in 1:40:91 ? (short term pure) Speed ?
Of corse don´t. He just leads from the start to the end. Of course it´s not based in stronger aerobics or fast (pure) speed that made him that fast performance, Besides, as it´s stated many times, the second lap of the 800m is slower than the first one and on this Rudisha that was not exception, but the rule. That means that to run with tons of lactate concentration is the main quality that someone that wants succeed in the middle distance might possess. This is conflictual with the fantasy that is to take from the aerobic system the major percent of the needs of distance runs. This means that is not aerobics that able you to resist to the high lactate that you need to resist and carry on during the last part of any distance event.
Conclusion. It´s not neither the aerobics or the speed what makes one runner run fast and get fast performances. It´s resistance.
You might train whatever you pleased, but the main focus, the main interest shall be resistance, and never the prime interest might be aerobics or speed.
Resistance Antonio? Resistance to what? It's not resistance to acidosis, that's mythology. Any 800 runner can resist acidosis.
jono wrote:
Resistance Antonio? Resistance to what? It's not resistance to acidosis, that's mythology. Any 800 runner can resist acidosis.
rekrunner wrote:
What does Antonio mean by resistance? This is a kind of measure of endurance. If you double your distance, how much speed can you keep? If you compare two runners:
A: 400m=60s, 800m=2:05
B: 400m=55s, 800m=2:10
Runner A wins at 800m because he has better resistance, despite his lower 400m speed. If you train Runner B's resistance then he can run 1:55. (OK, train Runner A for speed too, then he runs 1:58).
Antonio Cabral wrote:
Resistance is simply the ability to delay/sustain a certain speed pace during one long distance without the minimum of pace decresete. It´s gained trough specific training. You can do whatever aerobic training you think its necessary, however the new frontier of training methodology is to use during a season many periods of specific training and perform many training workouts of specific training, because it´s the kind of training that leads to better resistance.
Athletes able to get good resistance, never have to spend long time without specific training, because if they don´t train specifics they losing a part of what before they were able to build.
For instance one runner like kenyan Bungei he runs about 1 hour maximum a few days day per week, during Kenya winter, but meantime during that period in the way to improve his aerobic power he uses workouts like this: 10 kilo total with 3X2k intervals in about 6:00min (3:00min/k pace) with interval recovery of 2000m in about 6:40min (3:20min/k pace). Also during the same winter period he does for instance 7X1000m in about 2:40-2:45min/kilo pace. Or this is the way to be as fast as sub 1:44 in 800m.
To imagine that one runner like David Rudisha or Kaki takes the winter season doing just aerobics and at the final stage they do intervals then on a limited period of weeks before competition “a la Lydiard” that is something stupid.
Van Aaken Method wrote:
Antonio Cabral wrote:Third. Complete recovery from one marathon takes 30-45 days, don´t you think is quickly recovery ? Might be q to 2 years.
Yuki Kawauchi\\\'s 2012 race schedule:
Mari Tanigawa Half-Marathon, Tokyo, 1/8/12 - 1:06:19 - 2nd
Okumusashi Ekiden 6th Stage, 9.283 km, Hanno, 1/29/12 - 27:15 - 1st
Kagawa Marugame International Half-Marathon, Kagawa, 2/5/12 - 1:02:18 - 27th - PB
Tokyo Marathon, Tokyo, 2/26/12 - 2:12:51 - 14th
Saitama Half-Marathon, Saitama, 3/12/12 - 1:04:26 - 1st
Satte Sakura 10-Mile Road Race, Satte, 4/1/12 - 48:07 - 2nd
Yaizu Minato Half-Marathon, Yaizu, 4/8/12 - 1:03:48 - 2nd
Kasumigaura Marathon, Tsuchiura, 4/15/12 - 2:22:38 - 1st
Dusseldorf Marathon, Dusseldorf, 4/29/12 - 2:12:58 - 8th
Nittai University Time Trials 5000 m Heat 18, Yokohama, 5/6/12 - 14:00.02 - 4th
Sendai International Half-Marathon, Sendai, 5/13/12 - 1:03:49 - 4th
Gifu Seiryu Half-Marathon, Gifu, 5/20/12 - 1:04:13 - 12th
Kurobe Meisui Half-Marathon, Kurobe, 5/27/12 - 1:05:38 - 2nd
Sakuranbo Half-Marathon, Higashine, 6/10/12 - 1:05:34 - 1st
Okinoshima 50 km Ultra, Okinoshima, 6/17/12 - 2:51:45 - 1st - CR
Gold Coast Marathon, Brisbane, 7/1/12 - 2:13:26 - 4th
Hokuren Distance Challenge Abashiri Meet 5000 m, Abashiri, 7/7/12 - 14:09.37 - 25th
Shibetsu Half-Marathon, Shibetsu, 7/22/12 - 1:05:00 - 1st
Kushiro Shitsugen 30 km Road Race, Kushiro, 7/29/12 - 1:35:02 - 1st
Nihonkai Melon Half-Marathon, Oga, 8/5/12 - 1:06:15 - 1st
Hokkaido Marathon, Sapporo, 8/26/12 - 2:18:38 - 1st
Harunako Ekiden 4th Stage, 5.5 km, Harunako, 9/2/12 - 15:48 - 1st - CR
Sydney Marathon, Sydney, 9/16/12 - 2:11:52 - 1st - CR
Nittai University Time Trials 1500 m Heat 12, Yokohama, 9/22/12 - 3:50.51 - 1st - PB
Nittai University Time Trials 5000 m Heat 37, Yokohama, 9/23/12 - 13:58.62 - 7th - PB
World Half-Marathon Championships, Kavarna, 10/6/12 - 1:04:04 - 21st
Chiba Aqualine Marathon, Chiba, 10/21/12 - 2:17:48 - 1st
Joshu Ota Subaru Half-Marathon, Ota, 10/28/12 - 1:05:55 - 1st
Hasuda 3 km Road Race, Hasuda, 11/3/12 - 8:44 - 1st
Oshu Maezawa 30 km Road Race, Oshu, 11/4/12 - 1:33:12 - 1st
Ageo City Half-Marathon, Ageo, 11/18/12 - 1:03:02 - 3rd
Fukuoka International Marathon, Fukuoka, 12/2/12 - 2:10:29 - 6th
JBMA Jingu Gaien 10 km Road Race, Tokyo, 12/9/12 - 38:04 - guest appearance
Hofu Yomiuri Marathon, Hofu, 12/16/12 - 2:10:46 - 1st
etc.....
More than 30 runs, just one year, few marathons included. What you want to prove ? Is this Lydiard training ? In my opinion this just proves that we can compete year round, be in top shape all year round, no need of Lydiard introductory aerobic specific block, no need of Lydiard periodisation, no need of coordination phase, basically each run is one specific workout indeed.
One more example of Lydiard training useless.
Thanks, this proves Lydiard periodisation and training inefficiency.
jono wrote:
Resistance Antonio? Resistance to what? It's not resistance to acidosis, that's mythology. Any 800 runner can resist acidosis.
He doesn't answer because he doesn't know how.
The use of "resistance" by António is a mistake. He means "endurance" which is "resistência" in Portuguese.
Antonio Cabral wrote:
Thanks, this proves Lydiard periodisation and training inefficiency.
You mean that in your opinion all periodization is inefficient or just Lydiard's?
Peter Coe was big on periodization and we all know the results Seb achieved.
Except Antonio did answer it above (before "jono" asked the question).Endurance doesn't fully capture the meaning, because endurance can be long and slow.It's resistance to slowing down (fatigue).It's more like stamina, strength, resilience, tolerance (of speed), or speed retention.
Minimalist Hoka wrote:
He doesn't answer because he doesn't know how.
The use of "resistance" by António is a mistake. He means "endurance" which is "resistência" in Portuguese.
jono wrote:
Resistance Antonio? Resistance to what? It's not resistance to acidosis, that's mythology. Any 800 runner can resist acidosis.
jono wrote:
U.N.O. wrote:You assume that aerobic capacity is the VO2max, but how then we can still improve a lot after the VO2max has been plateaued. Isn´t that because of the rise of the lactate threshold, and maybe running economy. Lifting the LT to a higher % of the VO2max (LT @ 80-90% of VO2max has been reported in elite endurance athletes) means that we can use more muscles "aerobically" than before, and if this is not increasing aerobic capacity then what it is. The higher LT will also lift the running time to exhaustion at 100% vVO2max, etc. If you previously was capable of running 6minutes at 100% vVO2max, and after imroving the LT you can run 6minutes 30seconds at 100% vVO2max, for example, if this doesn´t mean that your aerobic capacity has improved then what does it mean.
Obviously the problem is on the terminology, the meaning of the term aerobic capacity seems to be different to you than it´s to me.
******************************************************
Yes, better economy.
Oh, I didn´t know that it´s that black and white, many thanks (not).
I also think examples of workouts would make it easier to understand.Let's pick something well known like Daniels Running Formula.How would you distinguish between Daniels I-paced intervals and R-paced intervals?Maybe you don't know what that is. In the last century, if you were not familiar with Daniels, I could use more universal labels:I-paced interval training can be called "aerobic interval training"R-paced interval training can be called "anaerobic interval training"Some concrete examples for a 35:00 10K (VDOT 61) runner:"I": 8x400m reps in 80s (~3300m pace) with 200m active recovery"R": 8x400m reps in 73s (~1600m pace) with 3 min. standing recoveryWhat shall we call these two workouts, for the broadest understanding?
To jono wrote:
1. Whats the right use of the words jono? Any examples of workouts would make it easier to understand. What are these commonly called anaerobic workouts that really are aerobic? And isn't a workout anaerobic if you get high lactate?
jono wrote:
You can get high lactate in a 5000m race, but that is still mostly aerobic. The lactate is accumulating gradually over the course of the race. When lactate accumulates rapidly so that the source of ATP is glycolysis/glycogenolysis, that is mostly anaerobic, as happnes in 100-400m races.
When lactate is produced, there is another energy source released at the same time which fuels the muscles anaerobicallly, these sources are glycolytic ATP which is produced from blood glucose supply to the muscles and glycogenolytic ATP which is produced directly from muscle glycogen. The lacate produced at the same time goes either to local mitochondria for aerobic respiration or to mitochondria in another muscle for aerobic respiration, or it goes to the liver for reconversion to glycogen.
U.N.O. I answered your question. What's the problem?
We can debate forever and a day, but I don't have time. Better economy comes from stiffer muscles used in a more controlled way, better neuromuscular coordination, more speed endurance from nervous system control, not from improvements in metabolism. Aerobic capacity and Anaerobic capacity don't improve beyond your genetic limit, and this limit is achieved easily and quickly.
Oh please no, not Daniels' running formula. He's a PhD tunnel visionary. Where is his recognition of basic physiological concepts beyond oxygen uptake? He doesn't have any.
PhD'S are obsessed with their own narrow field of study, which they think they can use to explain the big picture, but they are only giving a snapshot.
Back to resistance, so it means speed endurance?
OK, what is the best way to train speed endurance for an 800 runner? It's not about maximizing lactate production, that happens in a 100m race, and it's not about maximizing lactate concentrations either because that would mean too much emphasis on metabolism and not enough on neuromuscular coordination, the spring in the stride. It's a combination of the metabolic and neural components just as all race training is. And when these are put together in a race with perfect pace judgement, the best runners do very fast times without quite reaching maximum acidosis, which would slow them down because very high acidosis alter the breathing control too much and it also means that you have either gone off too fast, or you aren't getting the best energy return (springiness) from your feet and your muscles. It's more art than science really.
jono wrote:
U.N.O. I answered your question. What's the problem?
We can debate forever and a day, but I don't have time. Better economy comes from stiffer muscles used in a more controlled way, better neuromuscular coordination, more speed endurance from nervous system control, not from improvements in metabolism. Aerobic capacity and Anaerobic capacity don't improve beyond your genetic limit, and this limit is achieved easily and quickly.
Your answer was wrong, and you keep preaching BS above, that´s the problem. Besides I didn´t ask anything from you, to be accurate, those were rhetoric "questions" (that´s why I didn´t use the "?").
There´s nothing limits in the distance running that are achieved easily and quickly, even the imrovement of anaerobic capacity has been proved to be possible in quite long term, but it need much much hard work. The improvements just aren´t always linear. Every training unit has also a metabolic/hormonal effect as long as we keep training, and if we train less or change the intensity etc, the body responds very quickly to reflect the training we do. To keep the imrovement going we need years of work with thorough progression. Running economy isn´t the answer to everything (except for you), no matter how many times you keep preaching it.
I´m done with you.