Why does Nick Symmonds train like this?

Longer breaks allow your heart rate to settle that's the point you want to be able to run faster during each interval. Typically your heart rate will drop faster as you get in better shape and you can decrease your breaks in later workouts but when you're already at the top of your game you are already in good aerobic shape. He doesn't need aerobic improvement he needs form and speed. He can focus on both form and speed if he's not falling apart due to too short of a break.

800 runner dude wrote:

Longer breaks allow your heart rate to settle that's the point you want to be able to run faster during each interval. Typically your heart rate will drop faster as you get in better shape and you can decrease your breaks in later workouts but when you're already at the top of your game you are already in good aerobic shape. He doesn't need aerobic improvement he needs form and speed. He can focus on both form and speed if he's not falling apart due to too short of a break.

Isn't he slowly converting to improve in the 1500m as well? That requires better aerobic ability...

1500 rio wrote:

800 runner dude wrote:

Longer breaks allow your heart rate to settle that's the point you want to be able to run faster during each interval. Typically your heart rate will drop faster as you get in better shape and you can decrease your breaks in later workouts but when you're already at the top of your game you are already in good aerobic shape. He doesn't need aerobic improvement he needs form and speed. He can focus on both form and speed if he's not falling apart due to too short of a break.

Isn't he slowly converting to improve in the 1500m as well? That requires better aerobic ability...

He is still trying to focus on the 800. He wants the American record. 1500 is long term. Judging by his form he has a lot of room for improvement. Look at the last 100m from worlds he lost his form and paid for it. He runs on pure strength right now he needs to have better form to improve

I'm with you. I think the 1k reps at or below lactic threshold should be on 1 min's rest. You're looking for a hard aerobic workout, with nice relaxed form.

The mile reps might require a bit more rest. Whilst the distance run is the same, the individual reps are longer, and it might take longer for the heart-rate to settle. Not sure on that.

In terms of speed, whilst you may not need to do sprint training in winter, I think you should be putting the building blocks in place to be able to sprint fast in comp season. That means strength, form, drills, hills, plyos etc.

What an excellent post!

800 runner dude wrote:

He doesn't need aerobic improvement he needs form and speed. He can focus on both form and speed if he's not falling apart due to too short of a break.

doesn't need aerobic development? c'mon man, how dumb could you be? this is base training for him. he doesn't need to run fast, he probably just does those 1000s to not get bored. surely 3:15s are cake for him, not even tempo pace, or possibly right at tempo pace.

another idea...he just wasn't feeling like running fast that day, so he just ran 3:15s and called it good

vbvgbv wrote:

Long rest bewteen intervals is V02 max work...You're able to run the reps at a faster pace, which is the whole point.

LT training has its benefits also and I'm sure Symmonds does that at some point in the cycle.

Exactly. Not sure why the OP has surmised he is doing these at LT.

The 8x1000 with 1:30 rest and 5x1600 with 2:00 rest are probably closer to Symmonds's (projected) 5k/10k pace or quicker than they are to a classic LT threshold pace.

Isn't this pretty normal Vigil-style training?

(e.g. Here's Brenda Martinez doing 8x1000 in around 3:00 each, with 3:00 rest.)

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'Regularly every week he have a day with long intervals, a total of 8-10km (5-6mi), but instead of having 60s rest he often have 90s or 2minutes.'

Because he's training for 800m not 5000m

UK coach has got it. 1:30 rest would be just fine for 1000m repeats at 5k pace for a runner training for that event. Not too long at all. In fact 5-6x at that pace and rest is classic predictor workout.

2:00 or longer is totally appropriate for a mid-distance runner.

Not sure why you would ever do 1000m with :45 rest. Either take more rest and do them at a quicker pace (which is probably what Symmonds approaches over the season), or just tempo without the trifling rest.

reed wrote:

(I'm just hoping this is Gary Reed.)

young master wrote:

Isn't this pretty normal Vigil-style training?

(e.g. Here's Brenda Martinez doing 8x1000 in around 3:00 each, with 3:00 rest.)

the key point is that in november you are laying the base of the pyramid. that is you do a volume of work under virtually any system of training.

for an 800 guy running repeat miles with good recovery IS good for building strength NOT with short recovery. in november.

but a couple of months off racing you could do 300, 400m 600m repeats short recovery.

personally, i favor repeat runs up a steep hill hard of 600m to 2000m in the winter, with a lots of stride outs, lots of recovery runs, the rest 5 minutes a mile cross country runs.

of course you have hard day, easy day rotation, and have one extra harder day and one extra easy day...

young master wrote:

Isn't this pretty normal Vigil-style training?

(e.g. Here's Brenda Martinez doing 8x1000 in around 3:00 each, with 3:00 rest.)

[/quote]

Dude, this is close to season and real hard 1ks, their on average as fast or faster than what symmonds runs his long intervals in! Can't be compared.

It hasn't been said yet, so here goes.

When you take more rest, you actually increase the requirement for anaerobic energy production. It works like this: If I run 8x1k @ 5k pace with 60 seconds rest, (very hard workout) my circulatory system will never really drop down out of a high output state. My HR and Stroke Volume will stay high during the whole workout. When I begin my next interval, the pump will already be primed. If I rest longer and let my HR come back closer to a resting state, the beginning of each interval will require me to run a bit more anaerobically as my HR comes back up toward max.

It may seem counter intuitive, but longer rest will make a runner's anaerobic system more efficient. This is not to say that if I run with short rest that I'm not maintaining a higher average blood lactate, it is just saying that because my heart rate stays up for the whole workout, I don't have to produce as much lactate at the beginning of each interval to run at a given speed (5k pace in this instance). For a middle distance runner, this type of interval running is more specific to the demands of the race.

Plus, because the blood lactate is allowed to drop between intervals with longer rest, the workout feels easier/less stressful mentally and emotionally, which is a pretty good thing if you are still 9 months away from your peak season.

My god I sure hope that most of you are not coaches. Why wouldn't any of you know right off the bat that he was doing threshold work in fre@kin October! He JUST finished his season at 5th ave right? OP this guy is pure speed. His 5k is just awful compared to his 1500 and his endurance sucks and on top of that this has got to be one of his first workouts back. He's dogging it. 45sec to 1min is fully appropriate for tempo intervals. He's just clearly out of shape. For the rest of you...

This is strength work, yes you do.

Now I'm going to quote Marcus O'sullivan: "it is very difficult to get your athletes to understand that training slower will make you faster". He was referring to this exact 8x1k workout (well, 10x1k) with 1 minute recovery.

Are you kidding me right now? This is her Vo2 max! It is MY (and symmonds) threshold, her vo2. What on earth don't you understand about that. She is working a completely different system.

^^This needs to be done every month of the year if you want wheels down the home stretch.

I'm no coach, just an athlete without one trying to figure out how to figure out the key to the 800m.

But why doesn't Symmonds do it? He keeps up the long recovery every week, not just right after the season break. So why doesn't he do short rest intervals? As I'm trying to make my own program, I'm really curious about details like this.

I've got this part down, thats the easiest one. The rest, not so sure. Theres A LOT of different ways out there, and you have experienced guys recommending treshold for 800m, then you have guys like Antonio Cabral who says long runs and treshold for 800m runners is a waste of time (but I have yet to find out what he thinks should be done instead).

Sorry OP not bashing on you! I think you've actually got a good grip on things and you understand what's going on. I couldn't tell you why he takes that long of a rest. In college we took that much rest. As a post collegiate I started taking shorter rest. He's probably just not as concerned with it as much as a longer distanced athlete would be.

To answer the question "is the threshold work necessary in training or not?" I think the 800 is kind of screwey because its case by case. Brandon Johnson and Nick Symmonds got the same results last year off of completely different training I would presume. Are you a 400m convert or a strength based 800 runner?

And as for making a training plan. I can tell you from experience that training yourself for vo2 stuff is about as hard as it gets. I'm a 4:06 miler and I thought that I could just keep doing better workouts every year after I graduated. Definitely not the case, it's hard to come to grips with running the same (or sometimes slower) times in workouts week after week and year after year to get close to your peak. If I PR in a workout I'm in PR shape at this point, and it's really hard to get to 4:06 shape.

As for choosing which workout to use and symmonds seemingly random training, all these old timer coaches just have a crap ton of workouts rambling through their head at any given time. They can throw something together at the drop of a hat if they know where you're at with your training. He's probably doing very similar workouts just different variations of those workouts.

the main point here is to realize is that this sort of work builds

stamina and speed together maximizing returns for an athlete with this fiber type mix. this is an 800/1500 runner with excellent speed-side capability. he is not designed for long slow running. he does not maximize

the return on training by running 6:30/mi.

higher velocities are optimal

intermittent work is optimal

and moreover, a duration of work

is optimal.

thus 5x1000m at 2:55 is better conditioning

than 5000m 20'

same duration, massively different physiological effect.

dsrunner wrote:

the main point here is to realize is that this sort of work builds

stamina and speed together maximizing returns for an athlete with this fiber type mix. this is an 800/1500 runner with excellent speed-side capability. he is not designed for long slow running. he does not maximize

the return on training by running 6:30/mi.

higher velocities are optimal

intermittent work is optimal

and moreover, a duration of work

is optimal.

thus 5x1000m at 2:55 is better conditioning

than 5000m 20'

same duration, massively different physiological effect.

You basically just told the OP that a workout is better than a jog? How is that going to help him?

Karma Police:

When you write "1k reps...below lactic threshold" do you mean faster or slower than lactic threshold?