Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?

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  • Cyberrunner
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Antonio Cabral
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    Antonio:

    Question:What Marius Bakken did recently that other europeeans have not??
    Anwer: Well he ran the fastest time in Europe last year...

    How many europeean men has run under 13.10 the last 5 years??

    Not many: Marc Carrol, anyone else??

    You have some imports from morocco/algeria but not originally europeeans....

    I do not count cheats like Garcia, Dieter Bauman among others.
    Even the europeean track records are set by a drug cheat: Mouhrit....

    KnutK:

    You say that you are impressed about Marius, then you critizise the method of lactate testing which Marius point out as some of his key elements of success....??? I do not see the red line here....Please explain!
  • Dustin Hoffman
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Cyberrunner
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    To try and make sense of the confusion ...

    I guess that Pinto in late 1990' s (13-02), Moorcroft (13-00), Leito in the 1980's (13-07), Antibo (13-05) just to name just a few runners have all ran about the same sort of times as Marius. Marius at present is not head and shoulders above these guys so this I guess this is why Antonio sees it that way. But I agree I personally think that Marius is doing very well at present !!

    With respect to Knut K's point, I think that he meant that for many top European runners today, they got too confused with the high tech training etc. I don't think that he meant in every that in every individual case this was a bad thing to do. Marius' training is quite hard to understand as we do not know the specifics, but could be very simple rather like Knut K's training except that he just monitors what he is doing very well.
  • Cyberrunner
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Dustin Hoffman
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    I agree with you Dustin but I would like to hear the answers from Cabral and KnutK.

    I also wonder what Antonio Cabral thinks about doping in Spain and Portugal the last 10 years...

    Im sorry to say it but I suspect Pinto and other Portugeese runners (Guerra in the XC, Ribeiro etc etc) for using drugs in the late 90´along with all the doped spaniards that never where caught!

    I am aware that I might be wrong but I just want to hear the opinion of Antonio about this issue.
  • Antonio Cabral
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Cyberrunner
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    Cyberrunner
    How many times did win Marius Bakken any 10000m european challenge title, or indoor track 800m, 1500m, 3000m european or world titles or outdoor track 800m, 1500, 3000m steeple or 5000m or 10000m or marathon titles or european half marathon titles or world half marathon titles, or any golden league meeting win in any distance event, or any 800m, 1500m or 3000m steeple or 5000m, 10000m and marathon olympics during the same your 5 years period or any other period that you want to consider. ZERO, NULL ! But dozens of europeans they did that during the same period. During that same last five uears period period how many european or world cros country titles Marius Bakken did win? ZERO, but douzens of europeans did and not all cheaters or false europeans as you try to argue. What any other importnt run did he wins in road. cross or track indoor or outdoor during the same 5 year´s period ?
    As far as i know marius did once a final in big continental games. You see to be consider best than the other or in the kevel of the oether you need to WIN THEM quite a lot.

    I don´t need to send you a complete list from those clear and true born europeans that did it among the best world competitions - but nor Marius. I wish that one day he will do, but actually Marius need a bit more than to do some interstimng performances in private runs.

    By private runs i want to say the meetings whe n marius did that, aren´t not open runs neither that you need to have a qualify to be there. That runs are runs when the agents and managers rules, and invitational runs. I can prove to you that if Marius were an sfrican guy with the performances he did he hardly have permit to run in Rome or Oslo meetings as neither the national federations have permission to put a good runner there - so that aren´t real runs as Big games, they are quite private runs under IAAF rules. they are false runs as you call to those who cheat with drugs or those who aren´t from the continent that they run.

    The true runs are big games - anyone that did national selection and international qualifying are their by his own right.

    And please, distance running is not 5000m strictly. Distance running are all distance from 800m up to the marathon and 100kilos included that´s what´s the IAAF international rules determine as official distances. And also no runner deep analysis is based just in chrono performances.
    Once again I need to say that nothing moves me against Marius. I wish him the best. I think he is a good runner wit some margin of progression and also with a bright future ahead, But please it misses him a lot yet to be in the top of europe.
    Thus i can´t agree with your conclusions. That are illogical and tends to your arguments, that 6 years in a single distance, without considereing any big win or international champioship and also 5 years. I know why you didn´t said 6 years, or 10 years, because that can turn your argument against you: very clever !
  • Antonio Cabral
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Cyberrunner
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    About doping that´s an issue that doesn´t concern to me.
    I did a great desillusion when Alberto Garcia did test positive for EPO. I think that with or wiithout drugs he is a much better runner than Marius, and please if the IAAF they don´t condamn the runner to be definitively excluded as a runner by the first time that´s a 2 years ban and the 2 only single case that they take out perfromances or records previous to the positive drug test that´s in the case of canadian Ben Jonhson -they take out his WR that was done in the last season that he gest doped, and the second case that the finn Marti Vaino that lost his bronze medal from the 1984 Los Angeles Olimpics no aone have the right to argue as Cyber speaks - they are all life cheaters.

    But if you want to know my deep opinion about drugs is thuis one; since self blood doping is used since the late 60´s and no scientist yet are able to prove by any meaning or test if the runner did that doping usage - i consider all clean untill ther´s a positive test, but in the meantime i doubt of everybody. because a old and easy doping form that´s self blood doping. This in that context - no way to prove such a efficient doping type - i doubt of everybody except me (LOL) even those that you can argue that they are clean.
  • trackhead
    registered
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: wannabekila
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    I think the "Coe" type is somewhat debatable. He did the work. Even with questions of his true mileage aside, if he did 2hrs worth of strength condition, is that not 2hrs worth of aerobic work?

    wannabekila wrote:

    Wow! i was just about to make teh same point.

    Perhaps sometime around the late 70s peoples roll-models changed from distance stats (hill, bedford, foster, rono, shorter, clayton) to middle-distance runners (coe, ovett, scott). As a result the blueprint went from 'high mileage a la lydiard' to 'high intensity a la coe'.

    Maybe what Coe did suited him but i dount it suits aspiring 5k runners and it certainly is not a great base for a young miler who may move up the distance. Yet all around the world people adopt a Coe type approach.
  • KnutK
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Sir Lance-alot
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    Yes Are has the Norwegian 10 000 m record and it is indeed 27.32.

    The points you bring up about Marius are good points. I do not know Marius' training in any detail and what I say must be read with that in mind. As you point out Marius uses lactat readings to control his training. But to me more important fact is what he trains not how he controls it. I believe he runs a lot of aerobic mileage for long periods with very little if any anarobic work in those periods.

    The point I tried to make is that how you measure and control your training is not what determines if you train well. I do not believe that gadegt have to stop you from trianing well but they do not turn a not adequate program int a good one either. The important thing is not how you measure your trining but what you get done.

    By the way Marius used to have Per Halle as a coach. Per was a very good runner himself who competed in the Munich Olympics reaching the finals and he has a best time of 13.27. Per is an other example of someone who trained following what I in my earlier post described as “Lydiard ideas”. I like to believe that Per must have been instrumental in putting Marius in the right direction.
  • KnutK
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Antonio Cabral
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    1) This is a good question but to know the answer you have to know my story. The highest consistent mileage I did in my career I did in 74 the second highest mileage in 76 and the third highest mileage in 78. The results was 1974: 7.42 and 13.20, 76:3.38 and 13.20 78 7.44, 13.33 and 17.41.

    The years in between I ran but id not train at the same level. After 78 I stopped competing but did some racing again in 81 and 82 but never on the same level.

    The reasons for the shrinking mileage was that I when I trained in Norway from fall of 1974 again, had a tendency to get sick and stay out for several weeks. This was because of the cold Norwegian winters and the fact that I have some sinus trouble. I had a family and did not have the opportunity to go away for longer periods to train. I also believe that when I did not develop further my tendency to et sick is the reason.

    If you look at a runner like Ingrid you see a runner who in young age did large amounts of training - skiing and running – and benefited enormously from this when Johan started training her and put it all into an adequate program geared at running well in the summer.

    2) I did not mean to state that Marius is the best European runner ever or even now or anything like that. I just wanted to state that he is one (but not the only) good European runner. My question should probably have been stated as: Why are there so few European runners of Marius’ quality and above?

    3) Of course this might be the case. I do believe he should run more races to prepare himself, but then again he runs well early on without many races.

    4) Yes I realize that and when it works - fine. But the topic discussed and not started by me is the decline in European running. What I have done is just reported some of my experience from the 70-s and compared that to what I see in my country now and used that as a basis for discussion. If you in your country has seen a positive development with lower mileage that is good and proves that there are other models.

    5) The point about Marius I have tried to answer earlier so I will not repeat.

    As to mileage I am not a great believer in numbers as absolutes. I do not see 10 weeks of 100 miles or anything like that as the measure of good training. My point is very simple: To be a good runner you have to run a lot and a lot of it has to be aerobic in races from 1500 and up. How much “a lot” is depends on the individual, ambitions and a lot of factors. In my post I just stated that when Norwegians did fewer miles and fewer miles of quality arerobic work the results declined.
  • Cyberrunner
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: KnutK
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    Thanks Antonio and KnutK for great answers!

    Antonio: I still do not buy your arguments that medals are the only that counts. In my opinion running fast times is the most impressive. In championship you often see "unknown" runners taking medals in for example in the marathon... My opinion is that both medals and times count.

    Don't you consider Craig Mottram as one of the greatest white runners ever?? He has run 12.55 but he does not have more Championship results than Marius. To me, Mottram is the greatest white runner ever ( in 5000/10000m)! Second is Bob Kennedy!
    Stefano Baldini could be in the same leauge with his Olympic performance! But he have run fast times also!
    Marius is the fastest europeean at the moment, with or without medals, and 13.06 is not less impressive just because you run the big meetings...

    Why do not Portugal have any fast 5000/10000 runners at the moment?
  • KnutK
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Dan Moriarity
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    I very much agree on this point.

    I also think people have a wrong dea of what Coe did.

    In the 80's some time I read a book about Coe where there was a stoy about himn stayning in Italy for training for 2 month from early January in 1980. The work described is 8 km in the morning 12 km in the afternoon all continous running but keeping a good pace. Some days he did strength work at nights. Sundays he ran just once but then ran 20 km on a continous run. He finishe the stay with a x-country race against goos Italian distance runners and beat them all over 8 km.

    Unfortunatially I am not able to find the book again so it is all just on memory with the posibilities of misstakes that gives.

    I also asked Cram about Coe when Cranm was in Norway to lecture last year. Cram laughed at the Norweigian idea that Coe proves that you do not have to do solid base work to run well over 1500m. Cram stated with some emphasis that "Coe did very solid basework".

    We all know that Coe ran less than a lot of other good runners but we also have to remember his background as someone who competed very well over longer distances. What seem to be the case is that Coe and Cram both ran fast during their basework Cram stated that he did a lot of his running around 3.20 pr km during this period.
  • Antonio Cabral
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Cyberrunner
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    Cyber
    Ther´s no way i get you out of your fix idea. I don´t deny that performances that means something, i don´t want to deny, but that´s not enough.
    Actually I receive a few e-mails daily from people all around the world that wants to train with me, but mainly that are american runners. The fact is that from top runners (13:47)to average runners (14:40) to mediocre runners (16;50) when I ask them what are their goals, they all answer: I want to go to the Olympics, I want to qualify to the olimpics –even runners with more than 6:00 in the mile they want to make the Olympics. But no one never said to me that he wants to do the world record ! Think about this, why they say i want the olimpics and they never say i want the world record.
    You said that both - performances and titles - have interest in a runner appreciation. Besides when a runner ecides a season goal target and if the goal that´s a big competition but he fails completely that´s a great defeat – that what normally happens with Marius. Performances that are to break out every season or so, but titles you will never get out a medal from a runner, that´s definitive, if he is clean (LOL). Think that everyday in the year round all world´s population have the chance to do a good running performance, eventually a world record, but an Olympic medal (as an example) there are just 3 places for 3 medals for each event every 4 years. And that´s not the day before and the next day, that´s in that precise day. Besides there are titles which the performance isn´t considered as cross titles. In your logic, Dave Morcroft should be an european genius, because he did 13:00 some decades ago that´s WR and ER for so long, but he wasn´t. he was just a good runner. During the period that he did run, there were lots and lots of European runners better than him – just in UK, as Brendan Foster or Steve Cram or Sebastian Coe, or Steve Ovett. Also, during that same 5 years period that you consider there were also European runners that did Olympic medals, world medals and also did very interesting performances – world top class chronos. Not just Baldini ! take a look in the Champs results – indoor and outdoor , because I guess that you ignore a lot who did that in Europe. About Craig Mottram, i want to say a few things. First he is not an European thus is out of our original discussion – that Marius is the best European runner. Second, if you ask me he is a good runner - much, much better than Marius in my opinion, because he did better performances than Marius, in 5000m as well as in 10000m, but he is also good cross runner, but mainly because he did well in a few big champs as WCC champs, and last Olympics, as well some historical wins, as he did against Gebre. If if you ask me about if he is one of the all time best – I don´t think so. He will need do more and more just to be considered the best Ocean runner – in a podium that are Murray Halberg, Herb Elliott, Peter Snell, or John Walker, Bob Castella. Finnaly about portuguese runners decline? In previous posts I tried to send you some clues why euorpean runners they aren´t as better as they used to be. This is not an exclusive from the portuguese, and if you want to know my opinion we are still better than most of european countries – some of them with more population, more money than us. I just let you know a recent fact that how the Portuguese runners they approach running actually. We did our national cross. Then the Portuguese federation qualified the Portuguese top runners to be present. Most of them refuses to compete in WCC champs. They have no more interest, they say they have no changes there, so that´s better to run a commercial road run instead of a WCCC participations. One runner said off the record that if the federation qualifies him to be there he simply will jog along the course and try to use the travel as a holyday trip.
  • Antonio Cabral
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: KnutK
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    Knut. Thanks for your reply, Despite that are my own asks I know that lots of us want your sincerely opinion and know how you did that. Besides we know directly from a past top runner how he did it ! Very intersting indeed.

    About what you said in the mileage issue, I see that 2 distinct environments and cultures that produces 2 different mileage approaches. Those like you that lives in the north latitudes – cold weather, ice, snow, rain during the winter and also very short day light in a long period that have it´s zenith in the winter equinox and the opposite – long day light during the summer – that tends to train more mileage and mainly aerobics during that winter season period, with no or not too much competitions during that period. Then the target goal that´s a short summer competition period, eventually with one single peak per season. But if you life in a warm, pleasant weather as we the south Europeans we have that tends to run winter competitions, and train under faster paces and not pit such an accentuation in the mileage stuff. But despite that mileage is good and vital to distance runs, in my opinion that also can confine/limit a runner. That´s the case of those that do too much and/or too soon in their careers. They take all the benefits of the aerobic training and they have no more progress margin in that training zone. That´s why I think that the use of mileage that shall be progressive, and not to start with 100 miles or more or whatever early in your career. Some young talents they send me some e-mails asking me questions, They say, I did 14:10 with a programme with 110 miles weekly. They say 110miles as if that´s a good or if they have more talent to my eyes because they train more volume or that´s a prove of their talent or quality. But I used to think the opposite. If the same runner had done the same 14:10 but training just 50 miles weekly he have a large improve margin of progress than if he does 110 miles.
    Now, to be sincerely if you take a look of the mileage average range all over the world, with the professionalism, more training facilities, better shoes, better equipment, more training knowledge I think that ther´s a tendency to train more mileage than in the past. Of course there are limit experiences out of the average range, like a few Finns in the seventies that did 40-45 kilos a day, or as those like Sebastian Coe. But I think that in Europe people have less motivation to run, and this have a reflex in the training regime. But a top class runner from Portugal, Spain, Italy, France, Germany actually he trains more mileage than in the past – the 70s or 80s, or if they don´t that´s because they have what I consider a better balance in between mileage volume and intensity. No as you said, it depends of the runner each individual case. One point that mainly agree with you is when you said that you did 2 workouts a week.
  • KnutK
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Antonio Cabral
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    I have to be quick for I’m leaving for a short vacation in the mountains.

    I think I agree with all your points here. And one of the original reason we ended up running so slow in the winter was that it reduced the chances of injuries on snow and ice. But when we did that we had to run longer and then found that we improved so we started to believe that this was the right way to go.
  • Cyberrunner
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Antonio Cabral
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    Antonio:

    I do not still buy your arguments!

    Who do you consider the best 800 runner:

    Nils Schuman with Olympic gold or Wilson Kipketer without?

    I guess people have already forget Schuman but Kipketer will be remembered as the greatest 800m runner ever togheter with Coe i believe.

    No offence, but Schuman was only lucky (and of course good tactics) and poor tactics from the other gave him the medal...In my opinion a 1.45 runner should not be able to win an olympic medal...
  • Antonio Cabral
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Cyberrunner
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    Cyber
    Definitively i don´t see running as you do ! You are always relating performances to one another in a direct confrntation, runners with one another, looking for "who is the best", I don´t think as amnerican culture that have top-ten for all kinds of expressions, even in music or painting or movies that are an industry but also subjective arts and forms of expression. The academy awards etc, all that is a product of sick minds. When i see a movie i just think if that pleases me or that don´t. If you want to understand atletics or running in another level of understanding you will be able to admire each one as himself. I aprreciate Marius a lot as i aprecciate many others. That´s quite irrelevant what you or we think who is the best. The past can´t occur no more. All titles and champs are in the past - don´t you see, 5 years back that´s not actually, that´s the past.

    You put Marius versus all the europeans, Motram versus Marius, now you want an ask about Schuman versus Kipketer. But Kipketer isn´t a false european? But i will answer your question: actually the worlds best 800m runner that´s Yuri Borzakovski and that´s an european runner. he have both world titles (indoor) olympic titles and also very good performances. But to ask you directly Kipketer have a better palmares than Schuman - as in PB as in big titles - except the olympics - manly because they don´t allow him to compete in the olympics because the change fo citizenship.
  • Nobby Nomates
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Antonio Cabral
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    Actually I receive a few e-mails daily from people all around the world that wants to train with me, but mainly that are american runners. The fact is that from top runners (13:47)to average runners (14:40) to mediocre runners (16;50) when I ask them what are their goals, they all answer: I want to go to the Olympics, I want to qualify to the olimpics –even runners with more than 6:00 in the mile they want to make the Olympics. But no one never said to me that he wants to do the world record ! Think about this, why they say i want the olimpics and they never say i want the world record.
    When I read this comment a question occured to me; To what extent do you believe that those people's aspirations are bounded by mental restraints? By which I mean, is it not possible that in response to your question, the athlete (be he American or British, or Portugese or whatever) can envision improvement sufficient to reach or exceed those of his peers, but he cannot envision being fast enough to beat a Kenyan or an Ethiopian and achieve a world record nor actually win at the Olympics (Tellingly, you state that your responders want to "qualify" or "go" not that they aspire to actually to "win")?
    I'll try to explain using my own experience. When I was growing up, we watched Seb Coe/Steve Ovett/Steve Cram, etc., and, just going/i] to the Olympics wasn't a goal, winning was. I could identify with them, when I went to visit my Grandparents I ran through the same streets as Steve Ovett, and I could say "If he can do it, so can I". Not that I ever did (that's life) but I could see that it was possible.
    My nephews are now at the age that I was when Coe and Ovett were sweeping up, and their sole inspiration in Athens was Kelly Holmes, who fantastic as she is, is no role model for young boys. If they even bothered to watch the marquee event of the Olympics, their role model was Michael East,trailing in 6th behind some Africans. Not much of an inspiration to take up the sport (not trying to insult Michael East) but, you have to agree that my nephews' first impression of someone they can identify with, is him being beaten by people with whom they have nothing in common.
    Their interests are taken up by Rugby and Cricket where we remain internationally successful, and the concept of competing with or beating the Africans never crosses their minds, because they have no role models to emulate.
    Just a thought.
  • Antonio Cabral
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Nobby Nomates
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    I agree. We live by strong role models, and the society when the image is dominant. Net, TV, movies...sport winners. But i´m also right because the strongest image that´s to be in the olympics or win the olympics and not be in the world record or get the world record, despite that the running WR that are frequent than each 4 year olympics, and also despites that actually there are World champs, continental champs, indoor champs, and WCC champs and European CC champs, and half marathon WC. But the olympics due to the tradition and the strong images that seems to be the ultimate run.

    But i also take another conclusion from all that average runners that want to be in the olympics. is that we may just have dreams to the point that be a future reality. All the rest that´s fantasy. A 5:00 mile can´t dream about to participate in te olympics - he may change his dream to be a sub 5 before, or to participate in a local run. Olymoics are too distant from them yet.

    Last part of your conclusion i also agree, that non-africans in distance runs have no more strong images as they used to have, because to see a bunch of runners from Africa to win all the time that´s not stimulant for their dreams of sucess. But they turn on the TV and they see Figo or Beckham and they think that´s closer to their dreams.
  • sergey
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Antonio Cabral
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    Antonio Cabral wrote:
    average runners (14:40) to mediocre runners (16;50)

    That is insulting, Antonio.

    The average runner is not a 14:40 5K runner. That is well above average. And 16:50 is not "mediocre." There are people who work hard but do not respond to training like some Kenyan. That does not mean they are bad athletes.
  • nopee
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: sergey
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    That's from Antonio's perspective, not yours seregy. He is a top coach not a High School coach.
  • Nobby Nomates
    14 years ago 08/02/2005 6:01pm CDT
    re: Antonio Cabral
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    But i´m also right because the strongest image that´s to be in the olympics or win the olympics and not be in the world record or get the world record
    I am not saying that you are wrong, just wondering why that might be. After all, the simplest (can't think of a better word) way to improve your chance of medalling at the Olympics is to be either a World Record holder or be in shouting distance of a World Record.
    If you desire to medal at the Olympics, then statistically you are better off being a World Record holder or thereabouts (although the least correlation between Olympic medal and World record is the marathon (your friend Carlos Lopes being the last simultanous WR holder and Olympic medallist even though he got the medal before the record, before him was Bikila), the best is the 10,000 (5 of last 7 WR holders also medalled, Bekele, Gebrselassie, Tergat, Hissou and Chelimo). If all you want to do is take part, then the bar is set significantly lower (unless you are an Ethiopian).
    It is one thing to want to take part, but surely, if you want to do more than just make up team numbers, you would be better off planning a strategy to run really fast, than planning to run towards the Games?