5000m World Record Splits: A Progression

eh ?

with a guy who can't think or offer even basic math ?

is this a joke ?

learn to count

there are buckets of guys under 3'30

it's not hard for africans & never was after Keino in '68 probably was in 3'25-shape if 1-off run

you have no clue about modern circuit

it is win at all costs

no more mickey-mouse 6-lane tracks with no auto-timing to help

nonsense

an extraordinary 3k guy here was in

3'43+

if he had not got balked twice from start !!!, not veered straight right into lane 3 !!!, made suicdial sprint to get to pole by 200, made pace for current mile WR holder, he wouda run above in better planned run

is this a joke ?

who are guys you talking about ?

name them ?

is this a joke ?

800 is incredible !!!

1'40.91 off 23.5. solo !!!, after rounds

possibly Wilson couda matched it, probably not Cruz, even off epic '84, so 800 is current era

do you think 1'40.91 was run in '05 ???

is this a joke ???

what "historical progression" & when "established" ???

offer us what 800 shouda been from when Whitfield ran 1'49.2y of 21.6y !!!! if on '70s track

impress board

is this a joke ?

who has been busted on elite male stage ?

is this a joke ???

which elite male Kenyans you offer ???

who are these plural coaches ???

which plurality ?

post one

when it becomes of level of toxoplasmosis +ve, then is time to worry

they can immediately start with "toxoplamosis +ves" from '80s

that's a start

is this a joke ?

utterly miserable weather, great for northerners, but did you think if Big-man turned up here in exact '12-peak shape, you were inexperienced enough to believe he'd run 1'40.91 ?

is this a joke ?

numerous guys have run 3'26 or 3'43 or close enough intrinsic to 3'24.20 - 3'26.99

how dare you claim otherwise

you have no clue at all about the sport

is this a joke ?

none of those times were in same coupla years

what "days" you propose ?

is this a joke ?

Asbel already run it

Silas shoud have if not for appalling circumstances

in fact, both shouda clocked 3'25+ if got perfect run

add in Komen, who ran intrinsic 3'43+ just 4 days after a 12'39 !!!

is this a joke ?

do you not comprehend how fast guys of last coupla decades are if they get great pacing to bell ?

is this a joke ?

what "law of running" are you quoting ?

impress board

who told you this ?

then ask culprit when is it mandated to run 1'45+ before running 3'28+ ?

offer it to board !

is this a joke ?

who ever claimed it ?

is this a joke ?

what immense math or physics ability allows you to claim this ?

impress board

no

huge paucity argument

at top end, humans follow same rules of running

if Komen couda been expected to run 7'20 in '96, then offer better calculator ?

is this a joke ?

which "toy" couda predicted Komen-'7'20 once someone claimed he ran 1'47.3TT week before?

is this a joke ?

no one cares about legitimate bodies

i bit the bullet & estimated mo's 1500 potential in '15 off 0.1s variations

offer your "incredible" analysis to counter my conclusion of

~ 3'26.50

Bolt! Let's just ignore lack of testing in Jamaica when he set all his records.

Wether EPO works in East Africans is irrelevant if they think it works.

Back to Farah Vs Bekele. Who was faster over 400m?

You wrote :

The fact that EPO works better for longer distances and that he 800m has only improved marginally would be evidence that EPO was a factor in times in the 90s.

This is not true, if you don't explain WHICH DISTANCES.

EPO works at its best for events lasting around 10 minutes, directly connected with the Aerobic Power and the Lactic Threshold, because its effect is to raise the LT. However, how I explained before, the increased viscosity has a NEGATIVE effect on the velocity of the blood circulation, and, when we have a long intervention of the circulatory system in the performance, LONGER IS THE RACE, LESS IS THE ADVANTAGE, because the disadvantage of a reduced velocity of the circulation becomes, minutes after minutes, bigger, and, when we speak about Marathon, THE DISADVANTAGE IS HIGHER THAN THE ADVANTAGE.

It's clear you don't have any clue about Kenya, and Africa in general, in the past.

The first "mzungu" going Kenya as manager was John Bicourt, at the beginning of the 80 years, and the Kenyan athletics started to develop after those days only. Before 1983 there were no WCh, and the only activity at international level for Kenyans were Olympics and Commonwealth Games. That means ALL THE ODD YEARS WERE EMPTY.

Add that Kenya boycotted Olympics 1980, and you have a period (between 1976 and 1984) during which the only institutional events for Kenyan athletes were Commonwealth Games.

In 1966 Commonwealth Games were hold in Kingston, and Kenyans won 3 Gold with Kip Keino (Mile in 3'55"34 and 3 miles in 12'57"4 beating Ron Clarke) and with Naftali Temu (6 miles in 27'14"21 destroying Ron Clarke, WR holder of 10000m, who ran 27'39"42). This was the prelude of OG 1968 in Mexico City, with Gold for Keino in 1500m, Temu in 10000m, Biwott in steeple, and many other medals.

In 1970, in Edinburgh, Asati won 400m in 45"01, Ouko 800m, Keino 1500m, and RON HILL (white and English) MARATHON IN 2:09:28 (this 47 years ago... but now there are idiots thinking that for running under 2:10 athletes must be doped !).

In 1974, we had from Africa, in Christchurch, WR of 1500 (Philbert Bayi of Tanzania in 3'32"16 without rabbits, and Ben Jipcho was 3rd in 3'33"16), Kipkurgat won 800m in 1'43"91 after crazy splits (he had the world best of 600m for long time with his split in Christchurch), Jipcho won steeple in 8'20"67 and 5000m in 13'14"03, and IAN THOMPSON (another white English mzungu) MARATHON IN 2;09.12 (read again what I wrote about Ron Hill).

Do you think there was EPO in that era ? Do you think there was economical advantage ? Do you think there was scientific organization ?

You, and the most part of posters in LR, need to have some lesson of the History of Athletics before writing stupid statements, that only show how far you are from the real athletics at top level.

"briefly"??

I would indeed. And the point would remain perfectly valid.

If you agree white people are "genetically advantaged" for mass murder?

If you think it's reasonable to conflate athletic genetic advantage with rape, you're even more stupid than you appear to be.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. And I suspect you don't either.

uhhhmmmm .. sure .. if you need to .. whatever works for ya, I guess.

Ahhh .. that's it .. the UK's renown distance talent pool are playing football and rugby. Because everyone knows the genetics that lend themselves to running sub 13 minute 5000m races is perfectly designed to be a prop or a center forward.

Absolutely nothing. But what on earth might be wrong with acknowledging that maybe some other are just better at something than you are?

Coevett wrote:

..... In fact, we did dominate in the 70's and 80's running similar times to Kenyans are running 40 years later, ....

I forgot to ask .. which is it .. Kenyans are running similar times to European athletes from the 70's and 80's, or Kenyans are hordes of cheating dopers running "silly" times that make no sense?

You're talking out of both sides of your a$$.

Cerealously wrote:

Coevett wrote:

And btw, what on Earth is wrong in being proud of your own nation's sporting history you weasel?

Coevett person, you are an embarrassment to the sport.

Please fvck off.

Thank you.

LOL, o.k., so being proud of your own nation's sporting history is now a thought crime, I mean embarrassment. Any white guy who was ever any good must have been juiced to the gills, and anyone who denies the genetic superiority of black people is a racist Nazi. Kenyans and Somalis are noble savages who would never dope, and if they ever did use drugs, it would only be to knock out young blonde girls before raping them aka Billy Konchella. Never in a million years for performance enhancement. The fact that Coe ran over a second faster than a such a genetically gifted savage like Konchella who would never resort to drugs (except for raping children) proves that Coe was on every steroid under the sun and all whites are inherently evil (except white middle-class liberals who earn redemption through constantly point out the evilness of their race).

Now I feel better about being a failed (white) runner. I should never have felt bad, because I never had any hope of getting anywhere with my inferior pasty white genes. I understand now. I will spend the rest of my time on this board making unfounded doping allegations against Coe, Ovett, Cram whilst turning a blind eye to the well publicized and documented doping problem in Africa that is really just media fabrication and the result of white jealousy and racism.

LM wrote:

Every diamond league is paced, but sometimes slowly, and sometimes they don't even go with the pacers. How many 5ks are hitting 4k at 10:20 or how many 1500s hitting bell at 2:30-2:35? Very, very few. Almost every time a race does fulfill this criteria we have seen sub 12:50 and sub 3:30 respectively.

☞ first of all I have said before on here that pacing should be no more than 50% of the distance.

☞ Mo couldn't keep up with the pacers in Monaco drafted and non drafted he ran the same time.

☞ if you have watched 3-10000m races over the last five years you will know that Mo is often paced for times of 7:27 12:54 26:40 yet immediately after the pacer drops out the race slows then Mo wins in a last lap sprint with a time of 7:35 13:03 26:52. This is not surprising given reports that Mo might say do a 13:20-30 time trial in training and then try and run 49-50s rep(s) for 400m. Mo cannot run 5 hard kms in a row. Casual Obsever was correct when he pointed out that there is still fast pacing but the athletes no longer could run at these speeds.

☞Gebremeskel ran a 54.8 after previous laps of 63 and 61 or 2:58.8 for 1200m that is barely sub 4 mile pace. Now if we look at the excellent last lap of Bernard Lagat in 2006 (London???) of 51.7s which ended with a time of 12:59.22 yet he didn’t run a faster 5,000m for 4 years although during this period he was world champion (2007) and runner up (2009). And Lagat's 400m split was a faster pace then he has ever run over 800m (though numerous attempts). I had a front row seat for the World Championships 5000m final in 2003 and Bekele ran the 1st 3k at 60/61s pace but then slowed in the 4th km which allowed El Guerrouj and Kipchoge back into race. Many elites slow to clear "their lungs" so to say. It is amazing how people don't understand the idea of an indifference point, if the race was just 3s faster over the previous lap there is no way he could run 51.7s or anything near that. Arthur Lydiard clearly outlines how subtle differences in pace equal a lot of extra oxygen consumption. Yet to extrapolate a potential time off one lap is erroneous, it was a very, very good time run by Gebremeskel that day but he never got close to that time again nor has Ndiku ever gotten close to 3:27. Consistency is the only guide we have to make predictions from. The rest is immature speculation.

LM wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

How many times did he run sub 3:30?

There are plenty of ways to argue against 3:27 for any other time for Ndiku or another runner, this is not one of them.

You are being ridiculous, this THE ONLY WAY that we can tell if a guy is capable of running 3:27. He ran sub 3:31 once, stone cold once. Mate you are as bad as Ventolin.

calculo wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote: Sub 12:40 & 26:30, I am more likely to believe the Yeti holidays on Mars then those times

you have absolutely no clue at all

Not run since the ABP.

10/10. I like your style of posting - far better than that pretentious "calculo" character who's ad nauseam posts are becoming reminiscent of an unemployed comedian.

Ahh, so making snarky one sentence replies in the absence of any substantial counterarguments constitutes a rebuttal in your eyes?

No, you'd still be a low IQ ass who has no comprehension of demographics or statistics.

I mean wtf? Do you even know what you're referring to here? Nobody could tell from reading you. You mean the LA shooter? You mean Hitler or WW1 or something? I guess we'll ignore the Rwandan massacare where a million were butchered with machetes and contemplation of what African dictators would do with Hitler type command of industrial resources and military technological superiority

Right, whites are gentically inclined to mass murder, it has nothing to do with inventing industry and mechanized warfare and being a in a historical position to inflict carnage through overwhelming logistic superiority over neighbours. (or being 80% of the population if you're referring to mass shootings - who the hell knows?) However, 1% Somalis committing 90% rapes in Norway has to be the result of white racism. Maybe blonde Norwegian sluts not covering themselves up to respect Somali culture. Kenyans are so genetically distinct from whites that any white runner who ever got close to their times must have been juiced to the gills, but genetics can never explain vast behavioural differences between groups of people. Do you realize that a gibbering chimpanzee makes more sense than you?

That's because you're really not very bright are you?

Only if you're dumb enough despite your liberal middle-class white education to think that out of the hundreds of sports whites compete in at the elite level there are only Rugby props and center forwards.

Because it's a bit creepy this white middle-class liberal fetishisation of black athleticism, especially when done by the same privilaged white lefties who would like people locked up for even debating whether black intellectual underachievement is the result of genetics or culture.

And please... understand that nothing but snark simply makes you look like the pompous liberal cretin you are.

wtfunny wrote:

Coevett wrote:

..... In fact, we did dominate in the 70's and 80's running similar times to Kenyans are running 40 years later, ....

I forgot to ask .. which is it .. Kenyans are running similar times to European athletes from the 70's and 80's, or Kenyans are hordes of cheating dopers running "silly" times that make no sense?

You're talking out of both sides of your a$$.

Ermm...how about the times produced by Africans juiced to the gills in the 90s compared to the slower times twenty years later when they are forced to microdose?

Please stop embarrassing yourself.

But maybe you can actually answer the following question like a rational adult instead of a snarky 12 year old. In your opinion, are North African arabs similarly genetically superior to whites? How do Moroccan/Algerian arabs/berbers , who are genetically closer to white Europeans, compare to Kenyans/Ethiopians on the African ubermensch scale?

calculo wrote:

Coevett wrote:Isn't it a massive coincidence that the emergence of 'naturally superior' Kenyans and other Africans as a dominant force occurred exactly at the same moment in track history that the first real endurance enhancing drug became widely available?

is this a joke ???

it woud cost $10000++ to get such to superman level in those "emergence" years

explain to world who was paying this ???

Actually, EPO was very cheap to begin with, costing as little as $300 for a 6 month supply (at a non life threatening rate of injection). It's price went up on the black market towards the end of the 90s and ironically this might have had as big an effect in reducing its use as the EPO testing. Regardless, you're utterly clueless if you think it was out of the reach of African athletes performing on the European circuit who would quickly get their money back in increased appearance fees and prize money.

Hi I was actually going to reply to your other post but Ventolin and LM have sapped my time so this will do.

You say that EPO is best for events around 10 mins, which would going by what you say "EPO works at its best for events lasting around 10 minutes, directly connected with the Aerobic Power and the Lactic Threshold, because its effect is to raise the LT." This would be the 3,000m steeplechase and 5,000m though 1500m/mile/3000m would also no doubt benefit. But the evidence suggests that 100m sprinters and long jumpers have benefited from the drug because it makes them fitter. Numerous Russian marathon women and race walker's have been stripped of medals for doping violations so it must work.

You made the same argument yesterday with blood transfusions not helping over longer distances 10,000m -marathon. But Viren, Vainio and Cova have used it to maximal benefit over 10,000m and many people on here are adamant that Paula Radcliffe's released OFF scores could have only come about from a blood transfusion, that was from the world half marathon race. Paula still holds the world marathon record.

All of this seems to run contrary to what we have heard about both EPO and blood transfusions in the Tour de France and Lance Armstrong etc. Just like marathons the TDF is long periods of sub maximal exertion and reports that

both EPO and blood transfusions were extremely beneficial as exhibited by the comments of Armstrong and Hamilton. Frank Shorter is pretty adamant that blood doping helps for longer distances hence his crusade against it.

In the middle of 1993 the WR for 10,000m was 27:08.23 in five years later it was 26:22.75. With no new revolutionary improvements in training knowledge. That is what we refer to as the EPO-era.

I have no doubt that altitude training can be beneficial, this statement of yours is correct. But Mo hasn't been beaten by a Kenyan over 5 or 10 for ??? He does do training stints at altitude but he spends long periods at sea level but sleeps in an altitude tent. I think it was Ron Hill that blamed altitude for his problems at the 1972 Olympics (this could be wrong). But that was probably more him. I think it was Peter Snell (among others) who tested this and claimed live high train low was the most effective.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

I have no doubt that altitude training can be beneficial, this statement of yours is correct. But Mo hasn't been beaten by a Kenyan over 5 or 10 for ??? He does do training stints at altitude but he spends long periods at sea level but sleeps in an altitude tent. I think it was Ron Hill that blamed altitude for his problems at the 1972 Olympics (this could be wrong). But that was probably more him. I think it was Peter Snell (among others) who tested this and claimed live high train low was the most effective.

Again, read what I wrote.

1) Yes, everybody doped back then, so there is no reason to single out Coe and blame him. I really don't have a problem with that, but I do think that people with his attitude should not be in charge of the IAAF.

In turn, there is even less reason to pretend that he was so noble that he'd never cheat, though it was a) beneficial and b) without risk. Examples for his character were given in his thread, and many more in other threads.

In addition, check the timeline of blood transfusions: there were legal during his WR. So yes, he had quite some advantages over today's runners.

2) I never said that "Africans are the only group who don't dope", I never even said that "Africans ... don't dope". I am quite sure no one in this thread did, but I may have overlooked something in rekrunner's long responses.

3) What was your argument for the doping of the Africans? Fast times, world records, high prevalence of doping, and that doping was possible with only minimal risk? I fully agree, but of course use the same argument for other cultures, including Europeans.

4) The talent-of-the-century argument is too overused. It gets really ridiculous if used for a group of people competing at the same time, whose times then won't be reached for decades. Or for people who couldn't keep up with the top until they turned 25. You use it for Coe and Ovett, rekrunner for Radcliffe and Farah, vento for Ryun, Komen, Kamworor and Rudisha, Canova for Bolt, Bekele, Haile, Shaheen, Kipchoge, and those are just some examples of this thread alone. The list goes on, including Armstrong and Ullrich in the cycling world.

5) Even today, the IAAF bans only 50 - 80 athletes per year, including lots of no names, when over 1000 championship athletes (44 - 57%, likely underestimated) admitted to doping in 2011. So yes, the stars are still doping with impunity.

6) Canova estimated only 5% dopers, and rekrunner 10 - 15%, in writing on letsrun. I always remember that when they accuse others of stupidity.

Of course you can pick that, by choosing the doses and kinds. Again, look at Baumann and Slaney. We all know Coe was convinced that strength was advantageous. We also know about his interest in the East German methods.

This is precisely it. We can plainly see that the "original statement" and all my responses clarifying the original statement, were not about "doping" generally, in the two sports, but specifically about the "narrative in top tier running" not being "anything like the same". It's not about doping, but that the doping stories of the "top tier" athletes from the two sports are completely different. In top-tier running narratives, we often get examples like Lombard and Hesch and Hellebuyck. Steroid busted Baumann is barely top-50, while Sumgong is barely top-30. Which top-30 cyclist or "not in the top-1000" cyclist is part of cycling's doping narratives? We never had to dig that deep in cycling, because of the high concentration of known dopers "at the top". In running narratives, we often have to dig down deep in the rankings, sometimes below the top 1000, or look at other sports, like cycling or race-walking, because there are so few examples of top-tier distance runners known to have doped, unless we look at a few selected events, like sprinting and women's middle distance, where steroids work. Most of the narratives about doping in cycling are about the grand tours, including the Tour de France. I did not pick just the TdF narratives, but it's the only cycling narrative there is. There simply aren't any narratives about doping and world records about other cycling events, like track cycling. The fact that you gave us the original quote, and still say it's just generally about doping in the two sports makes me doubt your ability to comprehend plainly written English. Or if you can comprehend the distinction, then I wonder why pretend you don't.

casual obsever wrote:

Actually, what was the original statement? I thought, with my abilities (thank you for your insult, again), that this was about doping, and judging by your first response, so did you:

wtfunny wrote:

And yet, we have all kinds of evidence that shows cyclists were doping during that time. But we simply don't have anything like the same narrative in top tier running circles that came out of the cycling world.

rekrunner wrote:

It's not about doping, but that the doping stories of the "top tier" athletes from the two sports are completely different. In top-tier running narratives, we often get examples like Lombard and Hesch and Hellebuyck.

Maybe not a "top tier" runner that you're obsessed with, but you can't blow off someone like Lombard; national champion & Olympic qualifier. Goes on a program and cuts 3 minutes off his 10k time in 18 mos (30:33 - 27:33) for a ~10% improvement! ?

Coevett wrote:Isn't it a massive coincidence that the emergence of 'naturally superior' Kenyans and other Africans as a dominant force occurred exactly at the same moment in track history that the first real endurance enhancing drug became widely available?

I think you don't have great knowledge about the History of Athletics.

Before 1983 there were not WCh, and the only activity was OG and Commonwealth Games, so the odd years were without any stimulus, and was difficult to train without big competitions.

In 1980, Kenya boycotted Olympics. This means that the best Kenyan athletes, including Henry Rono, jumped from Commonwealth 1978 in Edmonton to Commonwealth 1982 in Brisbane, without any competition in the middle.

At that time, there was not yet good money in private meeting, and 80% of the activity of African athletes regarded institutional events only.

But probably you forgot something important.

In CG 1966 (Kingston), Kenyans won 3 Gold, two with Keino (Mile in 3'55"34 and 3 miles in 12'57"41 in front of the WR holder Ron Clarke), and one with Naftali Temu (6 miles in 27'14"21), destroying Clarke (27'39"42). This at sea level, without any specific advantage, like they had in OG 1968 in Mexico City, when won 1500m with Keino, 10000m with Temu and steeple with Amos Biwott, plus a lot of medal of other colour.

In 1970 (CW in Edinburgh), Kenyans started to win with sprinters too : Charles Asati won 400m in 45"01, while Ouko won 800m and Keino 1500. Something important happened in the Marathon : RON HILL (white, English and NOT DOPED) won in 2:09:28 (47 years ago !).

In 1972 (OG in Munchen), Kenyans won the relay 4x400m, steeple with Keino, and still had medals of other colour with Keino himself and Jipcho.

In 1974 (CG in Christchurch) we had an explosion of African runners. The star was Filbert Bayi from Tanzania, who destroyed the WR of Jim Ryun running in front from the first meter in 3'32"16, beating the best New Zealanders and Jipcho (3rd with 3'33"16). John Kipkurgat won 800m in 1'43"91 after a crazy split at 600m, which was the way of running for this incredible talent without any tactical clue. Two months after CG, Kipkurgat tried to beat the WR of Marcello Fiasconaro (1'43"7 in Milan in 1973) running the first 600m in... 1'13"2, for finishing walking !!!

In the same race, in Christchurch, Mike Boit won silver in 1'44"39, Ben Jipcho almost beated the WR of 5000m in 13'14"03 after winning steeple in 8'20"67, and Kenyan introduced the first woman of her athletic history (Sabina Chebichi, who won bronze in 800m with 2'02"61 when only 14).

Notable fact : IAN THOMPSON (white, English and NOT DOPED) won Marathon in 2:09:12 !!

Speaking about Ethiopian, who had a worse situation than Kenyans (Ethiopia boycotted 2 OG, in 1976 and 1984, and they didn't have Commonwealth Games, so practically no activity, plus a war with the neighborough Countries), we can remember the victories of Abebe Bikila in Marathon in OG 1960 an 1964, of Mamo Wolde (again Marathon) in OG 1968, and the first international competition of the one I consider, together Haile, Kenenisa and Henry Rono, the best long distance runner on track all-time : Miruts Yifter. Already old, Yifter had to wait 5 years (after Munchen, when he was 4th in 27'41" after an impact against the lapped Kenyan Moses at the bell) before competing again. The way he used for destroying everybody in both 5000m and 10000m in the World Cup of 1977 and 1979 was unbelievable, and in 1980, already 40 years old, he doubled the Gold in Moscow without any problem.

So, tell me, during all these years BEFORE the EPO era, in spite of boycotts and wars, the fact all these athletes won Gold medals, with some WR also (look at Kip Keino in 1965), does mean that the "dominance" was for English, or American, or athletes of other Countries ?

You don't have clue about the history of African Countries, and the situation they lived 40-30-20-10 years ago, and now.

You do the big mistakes to think their organization, the way of living, the supports they could have from the governments, were the same of European or American Countries.

At the end, you speak about something you don't know, and the final results is that your words are only a lot of stupidities.