Was John Kellogg correct that Alan Webb hammered too many intervals in HS, thereby sacrificing his career longevity?

Did Wejo and Josh McDougal sacrifice their career longevity by running high mileage?

Woooo hooooo woo wrote:

If I recall he uses Alan Webb as an example of not putting emphasis on long term aerobic development

I'm curious about this goal of long-term development in terms of the American system. I have been a middle school, high school, and now junior college coach. I would like to assume that all of my athletes would develop a love for running, training, and racing and would therefore continue to improve over the long-haul, but should I train them as if they will build on that once they leave my program?

My question is, how should coaches at various levels coach? Should high school coaches assume that their distance runners will go to a 4-year college, continue training under a quality coach, and then move on into the semi-pro/pro ranks, all the while focused on reaching their peak in their late 20s? We don't have a system in this country where talented young athletes work with a coach for 7-10 years with long-term goals in mind. Therefore every coach works to develop their runners for the short term, which may be a single season or a couple years. I'm not suggesting that we change the system. But it should be acknowledged that the focus of most amateur coaches (mid/high/college) is to develop their athletes over the relatively short time that they work with them.

For example, I have a talented runner who is not intending on running for the university where he is transferring. Should I still hope that his peak performances happen in his late 20s, or should I do what I can, even at the risk of burning him out, to see that he realizes his potential at 20?

Probably 80-90percent (closer to 90 or more) of High School athletes won't race in college. So in most cases hammering is the plan

Woooo hooooo woo wrote:

If I recall he uses Alan Webb as an example of not putting emphasis on long term aerobic development

Webb did some brutal sessions in HS no doubt. An example: 12x400@.58-.60 w/.60sec rest, 6x800@2:04-2:00 w/2:00m rest. These were cutdown workouts. Very, very few HS athletes in the history of HS T&F could do these workouts.

Coach X wrote:

Woooo hooooo woo wrote:

If I recall he uses Alan Webb as an example of not putting emphasis on long term aerobic development

Webb did some brutal sessions in HS no doubt. An example: 12x400@.58-.60 w/.60sec rest, 6x800@2:04-2:00 w/2:00m rest. These were cutdown workouts. Very, very few HS athletes in the history of HS T&F could do these workouts.

12x400 at mile pace? That's a pretty standard workout.

Here is the truth:

To run 143 and 331the stars must lineup. Things have to go well over years and years. It seems people forget that acquiring fitness is an active process. Just bc Webb has run 331 does not mean he should run 331 year in year out.

Throw in a few injuries, changes in training and illness and you have thrown the whole thing off and have to train for years just to hope that those stars align again

Coach X wrote:

Webb did some brutal sessions in HS no doubt. An example: 12x400@.58-.60 w/.60sec rest, 6x800@2:04-2:00 w/2:00m rest. These were cutdown workouts. Very, very few HS athletes in the history of HS T&F could do these workouts.

You haven't got a clue, and if really ARE a coach (which I doubt) I fear for your athletes. On another thread, you said that Alan can't handle 60 miles per week any more because of a bad hammie. In fact, it was Alan's HAMSTRING that was injured and was operated on while in Oregon.

In fact, Webb was NEVER a high mileage runner (70-75 is as much as he ever ran ata his peak) and the training emphasis was on not mileage, but a fairly high volume of aerobic/hard tempo in interval fashion. He did 12K of intervals twice a week which he cut to 8K in the spring/summer of his best year. It is THIS type of interval session which he might not be capable of doing now and remaining healthy. We'll see.

This is an article the goes back to when he was recovering from the Michigan debacle, back in 2003, which should give some insight into Raczko's real philosophy:

I meant achilles, not hamstring above that was operated on in Oregon.

ergsergsrgs wrote:

Jaouad Gharib

He will continue to run 2:08's well into his 40's he is a prime example of running because you enjoy it. Alan enjoys running and competition he is improving well and is getting back into racing fitness by this summer he will be ready to challenge the top level once again. People need to stop telling him to retire because he is the only one that can call that. He is still young and has plenty of time to get back into top form. He should be an inspiration to most people because he has obviously stuggled but is not giving up. He keeps at it. Overall good for him!

No, he said 10 years. And it's probably open to interpretation, given more athletes now competing in the new era of professionalism, as opposed to the amateur days where you competed in the olympics, and the now you need to get a real job.

It is more of the approach, the mental focus and goal-driven singular-minded purpose that some young athletes, like Webb, take from a relatively young age. Lukas Verbicus or German Fernandez may be other examples, we'll see. When these athletes reach a certain point, they may get injured, get married, whatever, and the focus wains, and that's it, they move on to the next subject.

Other simililarly successful guys may have a more long-term development path, more well-rounded approach to life, better mental-side of the sport coaches, mentors, and influences. They may never set a national or world record, but they are more consistent year in and year out.

Of course then there's a guy like Lagat, who defies logic in his neverending pursuit of excellence, but he smiles a lot, seems like a happy guy, and has a competitive but very humble nature (I don't know him, but he comes across that way).

SMJO wrote:

People forget that no matter what type of training an athlete does, most of them are done by the age Webb is now.

Snell retired years before he was Webb's age. Snell was already talking about losing his speed edge in '64 and didn't think he had as good a shot at the 800 that year.

Name the athletes that were unquestionably better in every way past the age of 30.

Time wounds all heels.

Carlos Lopes.

Pen Hardaway! Oh man! I banged that dude back when we was both smammered at some club in Jersey. Shiiit!

Overtraining in high school also at times affects those who do not compete after high school in their general health and long term well being. I am not suggesting that this is easy. It is difficult to find the appropriate level of quantity and quality for teenage athletes. You want them to work hard be disciplined and get faster. And you point to a problem, long term vs. short term goals. What makes this even more difficult is that talented and competitive 14, 15, 16, and 17 year old kids want to be as fast as they can as quickly as they can. Most serious high school track athletes want to overtrain and need to be held back for their own long term good. Teenage kids will always favor short term success without concern for long term consequences. But their coaches should not. I am just suggesting that a responsible high school coach does not unreasonably "hammer" their kids to eke out minimal gain in times while they are 15 and 16 year old kids whose bodies are still growing. I think most high school coaches are more than willing to hammer their kids. I am suggesting that when bones are growing and teenagers are maturing it is in the best interest of the teenagers for a responsible adult coach to act like a responsible adult and be cautious about overtrianing them. This is, of course, an inexact science and what one kid can do another may not be able to. But high school kids should not be getting stress fractures from over work and other such overuse injuries. High school should not be hemmmered into the ground to satisfy their coaches desire for success.

G_D

Really , hmmm , honestly look at the percentage that comes into the sport at world class levels , you mention a very small percentage ( names above ) less than .05 stay for more than 3-5 years. Please try and understand the culture.

African women stick around longer than the males.

German has yet prove himself in the world arena or pro circuit.

Having been to the training camps , various countries , worked in the sport signing athletes for 40 plus years its my observation.

It will likely turn out that Webb has some sort of glandular abnormality which was responsible for his early maturation, physical performance and early decline. Webb needed a mid-day shave in HS, and was already exhibiting male pattern baldness at ~20. He simply matured quick and is experiencing "the decline" that most guys see in their early 40s.

Woooo hooooo woo wrote:

If I recall he uses Alan Webb as an example of not putting emphasis on long term aerobic development

Hilarious. People come up with two guys which means it should be the "norm". Lopes and Gharib werre distance runners anyway.

Webb is trying to be a good college 800 guy at almost 30.

SMJO wrote:

Hilarious. People come up with two guys which means it should be the "norm". Lopes and Gharib werre distance runners anyway.

Webb is trying to be a good college 800 guy at almost 30.

Michael Johnson was pretty good after turning 30.

Consider This wrote:

SMJO wrote:

Hilarious. People come up with two guys which means it should be the "norm". Lopes and Gharib werre distance runners anyway.

Webb is trying to be a good college 800 guy at almost 30.

Michael Johnson was pretty good after turning 30.

19.1 200m - I should say so.

How about the guy at Penn State who has his runners very fast at the first meet? What is he doing? Hammering intervals?