Training mile without speed

Let's see, no doubles, no real interval workouts, no threshold workouts, and incredibly high mileage for HS, and WAY too high mileage for girls.This is bad and dangerous advice, imho. I'm a fan of training smarter rather than simply longer. Once you can handle training at X mpw, then you can move up to X+10.Training metholodies don't differ between men and women: women should be treated like slower boys. If I heard of a male training that much just to run in the 4:40's I'd say they either A) had zero talent or B) were training like idiots.

miles/hills/strides wrote:

Hills, miles and strides

I know a girls hs team with some of the best milers in the country (mid 4:40's) The schedule for the jrs. and srs. is

MWF 65 minute run consisting of hills

TTHS 65 minute run 8 to 10 30 second strides

Sun. 90minute run

day off every 10th day

They hated intervals so the coach tricks them into thinking they are not doing workouts when in reality they are probably running 12 x 400 meter hills in those 65 minutes and 8 1x175 meter strides.

Not saying I agree with it. Just that it works. They don't get injured and it's not fast running. I tell the coach it's like a running club. They run around my neighborhood chatting away. No intervals which they would have anxiety about and little aches and pains afterwards. I think it's boring as hell. But how can you argue with no injuries and no complaints. The complaints came when they anticipated workouts.

And they didn't start out with that many miles the younger girls run 6 days a week about 45 minutes a day with a little longer run.

Not questioning your training, but it seems like you're under-valuing your talent. Not everyone has the natural speed to go 3:48 in the 1500 without true speedwork. I also believe that increased "strength" will improve speed but the the OP will quickly find a limiting point. Eventually, you have to work on basic speed if you want to run X time in the mile.

Just race the distance.

I ran 4:30 one year on 60-70 mpw and racing.

But I raced the mile every week.

My progression was startling for me.

4:50-4:44-4:442-4:36:4:30

On a few alternate weeks I ran a 2:05 800 and a 9;58 two mile.

Along with hill workouts some longish Tempo runs at just shy of mile pace. 15-20 min temp run at 5:15 pace

'I'd rather avoid a discussion over whether it's necessary or not to avoid faster than race pace, but let's just say injury/risk of injury from sprint/near sprint'

Lets just say means that's not really the reason and its just some bs hypothetical question

You can get just as much injury on long slow runs as faster stuff

Would any injury really come on if you ran at slightly faster than mile pace?

I wish I had the "natural speed" you speak of. When I was a 4:11 miler my 800m PR was 1:57. As a 4:05 miler I was only able to muster a 1:53. I didn't break 26 in the 200m until my junior year of college. I felt like speedwork was a waste of time if my race pace was 5 seconds slower per 200m than I could muster all-out.For me, I've now finally found my limiting point you spoke of. I can't run 59s 400m's as a comfortable race pace so I've worked on my speed to move from 26.0 to 24.0 in the 200m.My main argument is that it takes a LOT of endurance training to get to the point where speedwork is relevant at any point other than end of season tapering.

mr. Toad RIP wrote:

Not questioning your training, but it seems like you're under-valuing your talent. Not everyone has the natural speed to go 3:48 in the 1500 without true speedwork. I also believe that increased "strength" will improve speed but the the OP will quickly find a limiting point. Eventually, you have to work on basic speed if you want to run X time in the mile.

You're right that If I were hoping to duplicate MPW is king's results, I'd be disappointed. The good news is our competitive environment is pretty weak and only requires a 4:35 or so to be what we would consider successful for this season. 4:30 and we'd be very happy.

[quote]mr. Toad RIP wrote:

Not questioning your training, but it seems like you're under-valuing your talent. Not everyone has the natural speed to go 3:48 in the 1500 without true speedwork. I also believe that increased "strength" will improve speed but the the OP will quickly find a limiting point. Eventually, you have to work on basic speed if you want to run X time in the mile.

[quote]

See my earlier post about injury. "Injury is ball of the foot bone issue that is healing. Uphill running won't help much since it puts the same kind of pressure on the ball of the foot as sprinting or near sprinting."but yes, a BS hypothetical thread about how to train a runner for a speed requisite event without actual speed work was exactly the goal.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'I'd rather avoid a discussion over whether it's necessary or not to avoid faster than race pace, but let's just say injury/risk of injury from sprint/near sprint'

Lets just say means that's not really the reason and its just some bs hypothetical question

You can get just as much injury on long slow runs as faster stuff

Would any injury really come on if you ran at slightly faster than mile pace?

What about doing your speed training (i.e. intervals) on a bike? Simulate the same workout as on the track.

Training high school girls and boys the same is a mistake. The physiology is different, their mentality is different.

2 mile tempo (4 min easy jog)

5x400 (1:15 rest) @ 3k race pace

2x200 (1:00 rest) @ 1k race pace

I would agree with those suggesting hill intervals/reps or even sprints. They are a really good injury prevention tool as they build strength and provide less impact(less distance from high point of foot to ground contact). Could start really slow for 300-600 distance and build up speed or start with short sprints(6-8 seconds) and increase from there.

If heel running on the track probably something to be fixed form wise, if doing it because of other injury on ball of feet probably shouldn't be planning on racing a mile anytime soon anyway.

"If speed is the name of the game, never get too far away from it." - Peter Coe

Ukathletics coach: do you coach adolecents? Yes, hard maxed out intervals increase injuries. Even if it's running on the hard track instead of trails (shin splints) you increase the risk.

In working with youth with little to no running history the greatest gains are increasing aerobic capacity. Adolecents can reach near maximum paces for the mile off theshold work, mileage and strides. The increased mileage increases strength and develops a stronger potential in the future.

to build up an anaerobic tolerance and maybe leg speed have the runner do high intensity work on the stationary bike like 30s on 30 off 45s on 45 off 60s on off at all out effort. this will let the legs be used to the intense effort in a race without risking injury

I'm going to largely agree with MPW on this one in that I wouldnt be too concerned at all about not being able to get in any 'speed work' as long as you can get the endurance work done. If this can be on soft surfaces then all the better.

Many moons ago I trained on grass and sand dunes on a daily basis with a couple of school mates. By the age of 18 I'd got down to 3.52 for the 1500 off nothing but relatively fast steady running on beaches and some fertlek type work on very hilly terrain during the season. The only time we ran 'fast' was during races which were run frequently. It wasnt only myself who benefited from this approach either. I was actually the slowest in the training group at this point. My training partner continued training in exactly this way and got down to 1.47, 3.39, 3.55 mile and 7.4something 3k by age 21. I only got down to 3.44. Now that I'm older and slower but still keen to have a few stabs over 3k and 5k this summer for a bit of fun I'm gravitating back to this sort of work - not only does it seem to produce decent results, its much more fun than grinding out 300's with a short recovery!

I like the idea, just skeptical about how beneficial doing high intensity stuff that isn't running specific would be. How often did you do this sort of work, how long before your races did you start it, and what sort of results did you have?

pr'd on a broken foot wrote:

to build up an anaerobic tolerance and maybe leg speed have the runner do high intensity work on the stationary bike like 30s on 30 off 45s on 45 off 60s on off at all out effort. this will let the legs be used to the intense effort in a race without risking injury

just as often as you would a track workout or near race pace effort so once or twice a week it doesnt have to take long either mainly because i cant stand stationary bikes. just get a solid fast effort in and do your regular running work. i did this during cross but i only started after a stress fracture broke through my foot so i could handle the burn from a race just not the broken foot part very well