If the Past 10 Men's NCAA XC Champs Raced...

I never said that. That's not my quote.

Pre ran 13:22 in college and won 3 NCAA cross titles and today would still be second if not first in most NCAA cross country championships.

I don't think he would have beaten Rupp in 2009, Chelenga in 2010 and Boaz in 2001 however.

Torres I can't imagine was much better in 2002 than Pre was his last 3 years in college.

Lalang, Rupp, and Chelenga FTTWWW

I realize that most "young bucks" on this site were still in diapers in 2000, but everyone ranking Kelly at 10th simply doesn't know who he is. He was simply a cross country animal. As an example, he was 24th at World XC long course just a few months after his NCAA triumph. He was plagued by injuries and bad luck throughout his career, but his kick in Iowa in 2000 was something to behold. If he was in a race with the other champions, there's NO WAY he's finish last.

Going back just a bit further....Meb in 97 beat a very distinguished field and Goucher in 98 beat a pretty strong field as well.

roll tide wrote:

Interesting topic. If you go back just a few years earlier, you would have to throw David Kimani's freshman win at Indiana in the top of that list. The guy was a freak and would have been a monster if he could have ever stayed healthy.

break it up wrote:

I never said that. That's not my quote.

Pre ran 13:22 in college and won 3 NCAA cross titles and today would still be second if not first in most NCAA cross country championships.

I don't think he would have beaten Rupp in 2009, Chelenga in 2010 and Boaz in 2001 however.

Torres I can't imagine was much better in 2002 than Pre was his last 3 years in college.

He was a lot closer to the AR with that 13:22 than Rupp is with is several-years post college mark. To think that anyone that has run faster than 13:22 is better than Pre is somewhere past stupid and reflects the LR idiocy thinking that everything is measured by PRs rather than victories.

I would venture the guess that one of the three might have gotten a victory but none of them have shown nearly enough competitive capability to beat Pre.

Kelly was 24th in the WC 12K XC a few months later? I did not know that- and you swung me. Most of the champps could not have placed so high.

The only people who really could be considered for the top spots are Boaz, Chelanga, Lawi, Rupp. Boaz burst on the scene having placed 12th in the 4k race at the Kenyan Championships. He was going out in races in sub 4:20 (he was like 4:23-4:24 at Nationals though)and it was essentially over 3 minutes into the race. In a race with everyone in it, Boaz, Chelanga, and Lawi would probably all charge off at some ridiculous pace. Only Rupp would be strong enough to bridge the gap. You have to remember, Boaz was never pushed at all. He also beat Torres by 18 seconds at pre-nationals and Ritzenhein by 40. Boaz beat Goucher's record by 30 seconds. It was actually rumored that he was running "injured" at Nationals.

With that said, I think Rupp could have caught those guys just because they would have hit the mile in 4:20 and he could have saved a lot of energy.

I'll go:

Rupp

Chelanga

Boaz

Lawi

Keith Kelly

Torres

McDougal

Ritzenhein

Bairu

Rohatinsky

2004-2007 were the weakest years for individuals IMO.

I wouldn't argue if someone said Boaz or Chelanga would win though.

*I also saw the 2001 race in person so I may be biased but I have to think Rupp was about as good as these guys having run 27:33 as a soph(?) but with patience to hang back and conserve his energy.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/2001-10-23-cross-country.htm

Kelly placed 24th in the WC 12K a few months later. The 4 you have over him would NOT have all placed top 20. Kennedy ONCE placed 13th.

13th place finish at the 38th IAAF World Cross Country Championships

Bairu's resume is superior to almost anyone listed here, and when you consider the subset of cross country, he really is vastly under-rated by the comments in this thread.

Lalang is too new to really know about. Obviously he has superior pedigree. I doubt he will win four XC champs because I doubt he will be racing collegiately for four years.

He is one of only two here with two titles, won in different races with different conditions. Lalang, of course, gets a pass on the subject of multiple titles.

Also remember that Ritz placed very well in WC XC, including his podium as a Junior behind K. Bekele and Senior props as well (winning some major international races, I think). The conditions on the thread limit his full props because he was injured early in the year he won, but he did not win in other years.

I understand ttc's comment as it shows the kind of shape that Kelly was in that year. However, he was far less dominant than Boaz. I don't know what Boaz would have done at World Cross. I'd imagine he would have beaten Kelly though, remember there would only be 7 Kenyans / 7 Ethiopians at World's. But good point none the less. Kelly was far less dominant than any of the Champions though. He won by a few seconds over Ondieki and Kimani I believe. But Torres, Sanchez, Ian Connor, and Luke Watson were within 15 seconds and these were all 13:30-45 guys at the time. It's cross country, but I think it was a tactical race and that hurts my memory of him I guess. I actually feel if the race was hard from the gun Kimani, or Ondieki, or both, would have beaten him but he was the beneficiary of the slow pace. Also, wasn't his 24th in the mud bath year, lots of Africans couldn't run in the mud and that's how both Ritz and Teg got top 5 in 8k. He still finished 24th, but...

As far as 26mi235's comments, it isn't a lifetime achievement award. It's how would 2004 Bairu do against 2008 Rupp or even 2005 Bairu. So that means, Lalang is not too new to know about. What he did during the season was what he did. (Unless for example, he raced soon and it was indicative of his fitness)

It's not a matter of dominance, it's a matter of RACING. And Kelly was tough as nails. If we're having a PR comparing contest, then yes, Kelly goes out the back. But the guy with the fastest PR doesn't always win, especially in cross country.

The only time I mentioned a PR was in reference to the caliber of guys that could hang with Kelly.

Kelly would not have been able to RACE with Boaz, Lalang, Chelanga, or Rupp.

The conditions when Kelly won were tough. It was well below freezing and the wind was ridiculous. That's why the pace was slow and why it was so bunched up. But Kelly destroyed a very strong field with his kick (and the previous year's champ David Kimani), so it was a pretty dominant victory.

Not saying that he was more dominant than Boaz, but also Boaz didn't have to run in those conditions in South Carolina. I don't think Boaz was even wearing gloves.

As far as 26mi235's comments, it isn't a lifetime achievement award. It's how would 2004 Bairu do against 2008 Rupp or even 2005 Bairu. So that means, Lalang is not too new to know about. What he did during the season was what he did. (Unless for example, he raced soon and it was indicative of his fitness)

Yes, I understand that it not about lifetime achievement. However, you have to make comparisons across different years and Bairu is not getting credit for how good he was. He went from those two races directly to winning the Canadian XC champs (the same week, like Levins) and placing pretty well at WC XC. Did any of the others do as well later in the XC year? If not, maybe Bairu's races were really better than the other guys. Also, Bairu's races were in the context of a team race, so he had to sit back until the end rather than running away from everyone. Look how much he smoked that last part of the race each year. Also, look what he did at the Big Ten race, leading a 1/2/3/4/6/7/8/9 massive sweep and he got all of his lead in the last part of the race there, just like he did at NCAAs. Again, anyone that did not win multiple times (except Lalang who cannot have had a chance) is suspect. Both Bairu and Chelanga were good enough to win it their junior years and then came back and won when even stronger the next year. He was also pretty far up (top 10) his sophomore year, although not second like Chelanga.