Question about comparing D1 D2 and D3 XC

Started my career in the patriot league where we won xc/indoor/outdoor, transferred to a middle pack big ten. Huge difference in attitude between just the small conference D1 to big D1. Very large emphasis on athletics in the big 10 and the overall athlete experience is great: free tutors, lots and lots of gear, very involved athletic department staff, very impressive facilities.

In the patriot league, on a very good team: crap locker room, only issued racing spikes (no trainers, no clothes), no free tutors, nobody cared about sports.

So this middle of the road conference, good team in D1 was miles and miles below the Big conference middle of the road team in D1, if you can follow that.

Which makes me believe that stepping down from small conference to smaller division, (DII and DIII) would be an even worse downgrade. If competitive running is what you are primarily looking for in a school.. go to a DI. If its just another one of your things on a long list, then go II or III and be on a team with some decent guys and some hobby joggers.

For the guy saying he and his DIII teammates used to make fun of DI school after meets for their academics...? Really?

Ha... you had to justify to yourself somehow after you got whooped up on at meets. You think employers think more highly of your education than an ivy league one? Or Big Ten (Purdue, Northwestern, Michigan), or Pac12 (Stanford, UC-Berkeley).. get real man.

I don't know, I went transferred from a SWAC school to a NESCAC school, and I noticed cross country is a way bigger deal here, not to mention the academics. So I think it's safe to assume that all D3 schools are more competitive and better academically then all D1 schools.

In terms of academics, there are good schools in both DIII and DI. MOST large research-oriented universities are DI. But not all. MOST elite liberal arts colleges are DIII. But not all. Top engineering schools are fairly evenly distributed.

In terms of TALENT, DI is definitely superior. There are dozens and dozens of sub-30 10k guys in DI. There are maybe 2 or 3 at best in D3. That being said, the top runner at a good DIII school could run DI at most good DI schools (even Big 10/Big 12) but probably not at the very best (Stanford, Oregon). In terms of DEPTH, DIII is actually not as far back as you'd think. At a large meet that has multiple college divisions (like Griak), placing in the top 15-25 spots in the DIII race is about equal to the middle of the pack in the DI race. Most decent DIII schools will have a guy who can place in the top 15-25 at one of the big meets.

I ran DIII for a "decent" school (qualified for nationals as a team once in 4 years, sent one individual another year). In terms of support, it was about on par with what the DI Patriot League guy reported: Pretty much no gear (I got NOTHING to "keep," we had issued warmups that nobody wore because they sucked) and nobody cares about your sport. Some teams will give out a t-shirt or something every year, but no duffle-bags full of Nike gear like at a DI school. But the upshot was, given our awful football team, we never had to worry about Title IX crap, and we got decent funding. Our coach just never spent it on stuff...But yeah, no academic support or "special treatment" for athletes. But that didn't bother me, and it was sorta nice to know I got into/stayed in college not just because I was a good runner.

On the other hand, almost all DIII teams are not as serious about their training as a DI team. It wasn't like we weren't doing similar workouts to a Big 10 team--it was just that fewer people on our team were doing high mileage, fewer guys were taking things seriously, we didn't have a strength and conditioning coach, we didn't have a set strength program, our assistant coach was only part-time, etc. Like I said, I went to a "decent" DIII school, not a great (athletically) one.

If anyone's wondering about DII, they tend to be pretty similar to DIII except the top talent is better due to scholarships. The #3 or #5 guy at most DII schools is comparable to the #3 or #5 guy at most DIII schools. They have a reputation for having bad academics, but it's mostly deserved (except for a few exceptions like Michigan Tech and UC). I don't see any reason for a good student to run DII. If you are a great student and an incredible runner, go DI at an Ivy or Stanford. If you are a great student and a good runner, go D3 if you want a small school and D1 if you want a big school. If you're a bad student and an incredible runner, go DI--you can get your foot in the door at many schools even with subpar academics. If you're a bad student and a good runner, go to a mid-tier school in any division. If you are a decent/bad runner, go D3. Laugh if you want, but there are teams in D3 where even a 29:00 8k runner will be an important member of the team's top 5. But don't judge a division by its stragglers.

I ran at an near top tier DII program (competed at nationals 4 years, topped out with a 7th place team finish, earned AA honors) and loved it. We took training very seriously and competed on a DI schedule in the regular season (My senior year I beat the 5th man of a DI team at an invite that took 8th at DI nationals later on, but I was the #1 guy on my team).

I think there is a huge difference between the top tier DI schools and DII schools in talent, training intensity is the same. My friend from HS went to a DI program and competed at XC nationals twice, and the amount of apparel and "meal reimbursement" money they got was insane comapred to ours.

Basically, by the end of my running career I could have helped some DI teams at the national level, but I don't think a DI team would have taken the time to get me there like my DII program did.

Also, my team always started off the season with a low key meet because we were coming off some hard pre-season training. So my senior year we went to a meet that was mostly DIII teams (2 of them finished 5th and 20th at DIII nats at year end), and we won the meet so easily that if it was scored as my team vs. the rest of the entire field we would have still won.

This meet is the only time I really remember racing DIII teams, so that is my only basis for comparison

ifyouthinkso wrote:

(2 of them finished 5th and 20th at DIII nats at year end

Correction, one team took 7th at DIII nationals, the other didn't qualify that year. The year they went 5th and 20th my team won that meet, but not outright vs the entire field.

+1 on sdfsa....'s post

I was a top 3 state finisher and ended up as a walk on for one the best div 1 programs in the country. I enjoyed running there, met a lot of great people and learned a lot from the coaching staff, but after a year I realized that I was a project with a possible upside instead of someone who'd be a contributing member of the team.

I wasn't angry or mad, but I knew that I wanted to race and I knew that staying where I was at, I just wouldn't get that many opportunities to do so.

I decided to transfer out and ended up running for a div 3 school in my state that had a strong academics for my major. Our team was great and we had 3 other guys on that team that were all-state cc runners the year before I was... so I felt like I fit in better with them compared to guys who were footlocker finalists or sub 9:05 duecers.

I was a 25:01 8k, 14:50 5k, 4:12 miler, and a 9:10 steepler when it was all said and done. Nothing spectacular by any means, but good enough to be a contributor at a lot of mid level div 1 programs. For most of my time there, I was our 3rd or 4th best guy (we were a top 5 cc team).

The point being, focus on what's important to you and pick a school, that you'll be able to succeed, regardless of it's division. Pick a school where you can get the education you want,and balance it with running for a successful team and having a social life you can manage. You and you're running will do better whenever you're in a situation where you feel the most comfortable.

No matter what division you end up running, the only 2 questions that a non collegiate athlete will ever ask you is how fast you've run the mile and have you ever run a marathon, as well as "how long was that one?"

Good luck.

Giddy wrote:

you will do better whenever you're in a situation where you feel the most comfortable

I got pretty much this advice verbatim from a future All-American when I visited Haverford (top D3 school both in academics and athletics). I didn't end up gong there but it was the most helpful advice I got in my college search.

Patriot League/Big 10 wrote:

For the guy saying he and his DIII teammates used to make fun of DI school after meets for their academics...? Really?

Ha... you had to justify to yourself somehow after you got whooped up on at meets. You think employers think more highly of your education than an ivy league one? Or Big Ten (Purdue, Northwestern, Michigan), or Pac12 (Stanford, UC-Berkeley).. get real man.

Did you really just tell us your academics were rigorous in the same post as saying you got free academic tutors? And actually, I think most knowledgable employers would look at a DIII degree as favorably as a DI degree. Sure, Stanford and UC-Berkley are great schools, but most DI schools are not anywhere close to that level of academics. Plus, there are tons of DIII schools with great academics. Ex. MIT

I started at a D1 program that was near the bottom of the ACC and transferred to a top 10 D3 program and the D 3 team was better.