my coach for cross country said today that if you do not break 23 on the first day of the season (when we have a time trial) august 17, then you are not allowed on the team. I like that cross country is a sport where anyone can run. Do you find this fair?
Your coach sucks and he doesn't understand his mission.
That's not the sport that I signed up for.
bump! i want to know lets runs opinion!
I'm going to make the assumption you are a male when I respond, so bear that in mind.
23min for a 3mi/5k is probably designed not to weed out the "untalented" so much as it is to weed out the unprepared. I can't think of any high school freshman boys who could not run ~23min in the 5k so long as they ran a couple miles a few times a week over the summer. That doesn't mean those boys don't exist, but I think their appearance is sufficiently unlikely so that making a cutoff of around that time is most likely going to weed out a lot of lazy kids and close to 0 untalented but passionate kids.
That being said, I'm not really into making cuts in high school cross country. You never know who's going to catch fire, or, running aside, who will end up benefiting the most from the discipline, camaraderie, and work-ethic sport can instill in adolescents.
I liked my high school track coach's solution to this dilemma: his roster limit was due to the number of uniforms he had to distribute. We always had a lot of kids trying out, and his logic was that anyone who made the team should get a uniform and be able to compete in at least the handful of home meets/close dual meets. It's not a perfect solution, but it kept the numbers somewhat practical (~80 kids, I think) without losing too much in terms of cutting.
Unless you have 100 guys that can break 23 that first day, this policy doesn't make sense to me. Anyone that comes to practice should be on the team.
craigmac4h wrote:
I'm going to make the assumption you are a male when I respond, so bear that in mind.
23min for a 3mi/5k is probably designed not to weed out the "untalented" so much as it is to weed out the unprepared. I can't think of any high school freshman boys who could not run ~23min in the 5k so long as they ran a couple miles a few times a week over the summer. That doesn't mean those boys don't exist, but I think their appearance is sufficiently unlikely so that making a cutoff of around that time is most likely going to weed out a lot of lazy kids and close to 0 untalented but passionate kids.
That being said, I'm not really into making cuts in high school cross country. You never know who's going to catch fire, or, running aside, who will end up benefiting the most from the discipline, camaraderie, and work-ethic sport can instill in adolescents.
I liked my high school track coach's solution to this dilemma: his roster limit was due to the number of uniforms he had to distribute. We always had a lot of kids trying out, and his logic was that anyone who made the team should get a uniform and be able to compete in at least the handful of home meets/close dual meets. It's not a perfect solution, but it kept the numbers somewhat practical (~80 kids, I think) without losing too much in terms of cutting.
i could not agree with you or malmo more. Honestly it really annoyed me when he said that. But i think even if its by how many jerseys, kids should still get to practice with the team.also we have a mentally challenged kid on the team who I believe gains a lot through being part of the team, i'm not sure if he will be able to run a 23 by august.
your coach doesn't want kids that suck. I find it fair any other sport has try outs so that only kids that can compete at a certain level are on the team if not train harder and try again next year...this whole mentality of life being fair for every is dumb since it is not fair for everyone all the time. If you want to be a part of something you have to work for it stuff isn't going to be handed to you in life. So your coach is teaching kids to work hard for stuff they want. so yes, yes it is fair. plus 23 min for a guy is not good at all...
It's hard to say without knowing the specifics of this particular program, numbers, resources, etc. If your coach has had problems with guys coming out for the team and not putting in any work, I can see where he's coming from. Given that the time trial is on the first day of practice, he is probably trying to motivate guys to stay fit over the summer, and asking a high school male to be ready to run just a shade under 7:30 pace doesn't see unreasonable.
Personally, I wouldn't approach it this way, but I wouldn't get upset about it either. If he was cutting at 20:00 for a 5k, that would be a much different story. That said, I hope he shows some flexibility with guys who obviously train over the summer but don't have the talent. For instance, if a guy who ran 24:00 at the end of last year comes in running close to or faster than that, I would cut him some slack. But if guys who were breaking 20:00 roll in fat and sassy and can't get under 23 minutes, why do they deserve a spot on the bus?
trololol wrote:
i could not agree with you or malmo more. Honestly it really annoyed me when he said that. But i think even if its by how many jerseys, kids should still get to practice with the team.also we have a mentally challenged kid on the team who I believe gains a lot through being part of the team, i'm not sure if he will be able to run a 23 by august.
If he doesn't make accommodations for a mentally challenged kid who enjoys being on the team, I hope someone talks to him and his athletic director. That's despicable and mean-spirited.
Other than that, how many guys are out for cross-country in a typical year?
Emo Teddy wrote:
your coach doesn't want kids that suck. I find it fair any other sport has try outs so that only kids that can compete at a certain level are on the team if not train harder and try again next year...this whole mentality of life being fair for every is dumb since it is not fair for everyone all the time. If you want to be a part of something you have to work for it stuff isn't going to be handed to you in life. So your coach is teaching kids to work hard for stuff they want. so yes, yes it is fair. plus 23 min for a guy is not good at all...
I get what you're saying here...not everyone can be the winner, not everyone should get a trophy just for showing up.
However, have you ever heard of The Long Green Line? This is the name of York (Illinois) High School's XC team. There are over a hundred kids that run on that team every year. Sure, there are kids who will never race in an invitational, but that team is one of the most consistently successful teams in the United States. The coach that built this tradition and these teams has attributed his high level success to the tradition of finding anyone and everyone who will come out and work hard.
Emo Teddy wrote:
your coach doesn't want kids that suck. .
You've got it all backwards. The kids shouldn't want to have coaches that suck.
Emo Teddy wrote:
your coach doesn't want kids that suck. I find it fair any other sport has try outs so that only kids that can compete at a certain level are on the team if not train harder and try again next year...this whole mentality of life being fair for every is dumb since it is not fair for everyone all the time. If you want to be a part of something you have to work for it stuff isn't going to be handed to you in life. So your coach is teaching kids to work hard for stuff they want. so yes, yes it is fair. plus 23 min for a guy is not good at all...
This is dumb. Who the hell wants to run over the Summer when they are in high school? You should be doing everything in your power to get more kids involved in running, not scare them away.
My college team was one of the top programs in the country. We let anyone come out for cross country if they wanted. All they had to do is show up every day. They became the so-called "F-Troop". One of the F-Troopers is now the CEO of Nike. With your elitist standards he wouldn't have been allowed to try out for the team.
113 wrote:
Other than that, how many guys are out for cross-country in a typical year?
we do not push more then 25
Though I think it is a good thing for any coach to want kids to work hard and be serious if they want to stay on the team (I think the "Everybody's a winner! Rah Rah" attitude is a bad thing for our society) I think this coach is a jerk. Slower, less talented kids (in any sport) is why there is JV - so kids can keep working at it and get better.
Even if the coach had solid reasons to try to limit the team size (budget,practice time/space, uniforms etc.) he could have approached it better.
What makes XC better than other sports is its inclusive nature.
Reflecting back, I found high school XC to be more fun than college XC. Why? Because the kids in the back half of the pack made it fun and they are no longer there in college.
23 minutes is NOT that slow for a typical high school kid. Check out the results of your local 5K and tell me what % of people finish under 23 minutes.
I'm fine with XC coaches cutting kids based on a lack of effort, but a lack of talent shouldn't matter.
VF Runner wrote:
Though I think it is a good thing for any coach to want kids to work hard and be serious if they want to stay on the team (I think the "Everybody's a winner! Rah Rah" attitude is a bad thing for our society) I think this coach is a jerk. Slower, less talented kids (in any sport) is why there is JV - so kids can keep working at it and get better.
Even if the coach had solid reasons to try to limit the team size (budget,practice time/space, uniforms etc.) he could have approached it better.
honestly his only reason why that he said, was that he does not want to be the team at invitationals where one of his runners gets last. Thats all he freaken said.
trololol wrote:
we do not push more then 25
Well, then I take back everything I said. If your coach has concerns about people not taking summer training seriously, there are much better ways to address it. As others have pointed out, your coach should be trying to get more guys on the team, not less.
One of the best high school coaches in the country (Bill Miles, Wayzata MN) writes a letter to every graduating eighth-grader inviting them to come out for the cross country team. It's a huge program and a phenomenally successful one in a number of ways, not limited to championships won.
trololol wrote:
honestly his only reason why that he said, was that he does not want to be the team at invitationals where one of his runners gets last. Thats all he freaken said.
That's cowardice and insecurity, pure and simple.
trololol wrote:
honestly his only reason why that he said, was that he does not want to be the team at invitationals where one of his runners gets last. Thats all he freaken said.
That is f-cking PATHETIC! I will tell that to your coach to his face. PATHETIC and DISGRACEFUL! Email me your coach's contact info and I'll tell him what I thin of him.
113 wrote:
Well, then I take back everything I said. If your coach has concerns about people not taking summer training seriously, there are much better ways to address it. As others have pointed out, your coach should be trying to get more guys on the team, not less.
Agreed. In fact, if the coach spent a bunch of energy getting kids to come out and train over the summer, this would be the best incentive for the "more talented" kids to train, too. You don't want to be the stud one year and left in JV the next by all the new freshman who trained over the summer.
That is f-cking PATHETIC! I will tell that to your coach to his face. PATHETIC and DISGRACEFUL! Email me your coach's contact info and I'll tell him what I thin of him.
thanks for the offer i really appreciate it! But i dont want to get in trouble or get kicked off the team if he somehow finds out i gave it to you. But i honestly appreciate your offer.
The only decent reason to cut kids in cross country, in my opinion, is if the coaching staff cannot take responsibility for the number of kids on the team during practice.
Beyond that, I don't think any kid should ever be turned away, and if your team is getting to be that big you are probably in a pretty good sized area and hopefully there would be a parent or local runner that would be willing to help volunteer coach if the school cannot pay for an (additional) assistant coach.
I mean, it's one thing to have one adult to take responsibility for 15-20 kids, but it's another thing to ask one adult to take responsibility for, say, 80 kids... you know? Especially so in the case of some coaches who maybe aren't so great working with kids in the first place...