Sprinter to Distance : My quest to run sub 2

New Development,

Want to know what you guys think.

I was considering joining a boxing gym for fun and added cardio / core work. Running 15-16 miles a week and building to 40/50 is the way I should be doing it but I want to do something else as well on top of just running a couple miles everyday all summer.

So what I want to know is, do you think boxing training will be productive cross training with its added cardio and core work without taking away from the legs or do you think it will hinder the other work I am trying to do as it's too much. I also intend on doing my runs or harder portions of split days before a boxing workout.

Cheers!

2 miles today in around 7:30

did it on the road and not the track so wasn't quite sure of exact distances

I noticed in the "summer of malmo" that you are to run every day. Is there no day completely off running, and if not, why?

I was also wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the boxing gym I was thinking of joining - would boxing, core work and cardio done at a gym on top of a running program enhance it or be over training?

1 mile today "tempo" pace. Just want to throw in one faster run a week. @6:07

This was reasonably tough - was trying to hit about 6 minutes - running off 3 hours sleep and a full day work so hopefully will go better next time . HR peaked at 185 which I thought was odd because this felt a lot tougher then my 2nd day when my HR was at 188 (like 7:50 pace)

That is a mighty fast improvement over a few days if you're not trolling. How much distance running did you do as a kid?

haha no not really - I only ran 1 mile today - at the 7:50 pace I ran 2 and at 850 I ran 4 - today i tried pretty hard for the 6min

You won't need an awful lot of mileage to go sub two. I went under two during HS when only running 15-20 miles a week and my fastest quarter was only a 53/54.

Just get a couple of consistent runs in a week along with some 200/300 sessions.

Tell us who you are. Eddy Lee did. Or else you are a troll.

And you don't need to wait until next summer to break 2. You could get in a good amount of training and aim for this August.

joeguy wrote:

I noticed in the "summer of malmo" that you are to run every day. Is there no day completely off running, and if not, why?

I was also wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the boxing gym I was thinking of joining - would boxing, core work and cardio done at a gym on top of a running program enhance it or be over training?

Days off are whenever you need them. For a beginner like you one day off a week is probably fine, that would give you a mental break to look forward to as you get used to the distance runner lifestyle. Eventually many distance runners find they don't need a regularly scheduled day off.

Why aren't there more days off? They're simply not needed. It's no different than if I asked you - "I want to train to be a sprinter. Sprinting makes me tired so I only want to train every other day." Your response would probably be that most sprinters train more often than that because more training makes you better, and frankly that much recovery is not needed. Same rationale here. It's been discovered through trial and error over decades of competitive running that many top distance runners don't need a day off every week. Maybe it's a day off every two weeks, or three, or once a month, or whatever. But that is up to the athlete, and it tends to be less frequent than one day off every seven days.

I think the boxing gym would be a waste of time.

Dude, I made sub-2 off a PR of high 22s at 200 and an anti-Lydiard regime of 25mpw consisting almost totally anaerobic track and interval work. It was idiocy. You can be an idiot like this too. Even better.

So you can do this easily from your 21.39 capability. You can do it this summer.

Bear in mind that there's a huge difference between running one sub-2 and being competitive and consistent as a MD runner. My 800 performances fluctuated wildly even during my peak period. I had no endurance base and frequently blew up. I went from 2:04 to 1:58 to 2:02 in three races. The 2:02 felt much worse than the others.

But you don't need consistency if all you want is a single lifetime sub-2. If this works for you, here's how I went about it. Don't listen to Lydiardists telling you to run Waiataruas every day. Not good for what you seem to want.

To reach a one-off razor peak for a single 800m race, simply capitalize on your existing assets. Run a steady tempo run of about 5 miles one day, 33 mins or better, and interleave this the next day with series of inverse pyramid intervals. You know, 4x300 in 42 or so, then 6x200 in 27. Drill your fatigue resistance. Next day, tempo run. Next, intervals. Then keep it simple and consistent. Not too many rest days.

Do this for the whole summer. Last week before the race, pick up your interval pace to a series of 400s in 52/53s and 200s in 25/26.

It will take you eight to ten weeks to peak. You'll know when you're there and don't f*** it up because you're working from quicksand now. You have about three attempts over an eight day period to get this right in the actual racing situation. Don't get suckered into thinking you can run any 15s or that they'll help you. They won't.

When you're balanced on the razor's edge, muscle your way into a competitive 800. Not one where they're going to run 1:51 or better and dust you, but one where a bunch of Eddy Lee types will go 1:56-1:59. Run with them. The key is that last 200, you must be ready to close it out in 28/29.

If your first effort isn't successful, repeat immediately at another race, within three days, and then the same. If you don't get it by race #3, you're done for the summer. Your Alpine smoke-and-mirrors peak will over.

Then you're going to need to worship at the real Lydiard temple over the winter. Let me tell you won't want to do that. So get it done this summer.

My training partner (Dennis Norris) back in the day was a converted sprinter converted from a 21.7 200m runner to New Zealand national champ at 800m. Our coach was Arch Jelley who, as he says himself, bases his system on Lydiard principles.

Training suggested here is modified further from Jelley and is based on hindsight "been there done that" experience. Readers in the know will see that the long run 18-22 mile workout is substituted for a long walk + easy sprint + jog. This suggestion is specific to the 100m runner in his first season of transition.

Lydiard would have salivated - to have an athlete with your sprinting abilities, infact the perfect candidate.

New Zealanders put promising young athletes into the following categories. (with the aim at world class)

200m time

21 = 800m runner

22 = 1500m runner

23 = 5000m runner

24+ maratathon

26+ for the love of it!

Sprinting is of course primarily anaerobic and distance running aerobic.

You have the sprinting component and virtually zero aerobic ability (as compared to runners, soccer players and such).

Aerobic ability can be easily corrected simply by running many miles. However running slow miles will give you very little in terms of correct style for middle distance running. Bear in mind that at the world class level, even the best marathoners strides resemble sprinters much more than joggers (7-8 min mile).

**** How do you get in the volume without going slow? ****

concentrate on running rather than jogging/sprinting. go on youtube and watch africans stride, emulate this. (extend the trailing leg, and stride forward piston-like)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OQsyLM71p8

notice that the angle between the legs exceeds 90 degrees. >90- deg. should be achieved or exceeded whether running a 4:30 mile or a 10.0 100m.

*************** BUILD UP - 10 WEEKS ************************

every other day.

45 second runs, repeats 5x - full recovery (not breathing hard - heart not racing). gradually move up to 2 minute repeats. in time do this on a hill. then move up to 10 repeats. then shorten the recovery time (from a few minutes to a minute to 30 seconds!)

every other day

jog 15 minutes, work up to 30 minutes. take a run though countryside, parks and enjoy the scenery, relax and breath.

if you do gym work, do it aerobically, lots of reps, short recovery time....

once a week - a fun workout - you will be astounded on the volume you can do. start at 45 minutes and work up to 2 hours, yes 2 hours. sprint (slowly) 100m, then walk until fully recovered - ready to go again, sprint slowly, and walk. gradually move to 150m slow sprints, and eventually to 300m. you can do this cross country... there is no problem at starting at 5km and working up to 10+km.

what is most important to remember is to enjoy the feeling of running, and not push it, just fully recover.

When you can run 10 x 300m hill repeats with a 30 second recovery, you my friend have the basic base for track work.

during this phase it is best not to concentrate on pace, minutes per mile and such, rather concentrate on your body, breathing, form, effort, and enjoying. once you hit the track you can have fun with the watch.

*************************** TRACK WORK ********************

1 month of.

every other day 3 x 1 mile,or 2 mile, or 4 x 800m, run hard all full recovery. example effort best mile = 5 minutes, then repeats will be at 5:40.

off days jog 30 minutes plus.

1 long fun run

3 weeks of

6 x 200, or 3 x 400, or 2 x 600 full recovery every other day. example effort, best 400m 52, run 400 in 58 seconds

off days jog 30 minutes plus.

1 long fun run

***************** RACE ****************************

2 x per week, 400 800 mostly and the odd 1500.

the 1500 will be uncomfortable!

off days jog and stride 30 minutes plus.

note to warm up and warm down with 5-10 minutes of jogging / easy striding before for all fast work and races. do not stretch before workouts, but after is ok.

***************************************************************

Also, if you are having a bad day and things are not right, shorten the workout (hard days). get your rest and go get em next time.

One coach who loves to experiment and has good results is Alberto Salazar. If you are sincere in wanting to take this trip into middle distance land Alberto might be your man. The worst thing that can happen is that he says no... or maybe he can outline an approach for you.

This is one way it happens...

Good luck with your middle distance odyssey.

There is one male runner in the Baltimore area who has a wide range of events he races well: Remus Medley. You can reach him thru the Falls Road Running Store's web site. You can get a feel for his range via

www.athlinks.com

http://www.athlinks.com/myresults/48682758/REMUS-MEDLEY.aspx

www.runwashington.com

Google Run Washington Remus Medley

www.masterstrack.com

Search competitors previous seasons

James Anderson

You can totally break 2:00 given your speed, no problem. We are apparently clones: my PRs were 10.65, 21.31 and I ran 1:50.02 so you'll definitely be able to run sub-2:00 if not significantly faster. Good luck!

P.S. - I agree with the others: lose the HRM for now and just go by feel

kipketer wrote:

If you have natural speed, a desire to log 65mph, and are committed to getting better I think you could run a whole range of events and do very well.

That is SERIOUSLY fast!

I hope the "Wariner couldn't break 2 without training and wouldn't break 4:30 without training" is a troll. If not, they are a 2-flat/4:30 runner who has absolutely no clue about running at all.

Wariner could break 2 no problem any day of the week.

I think there's a 0% chance that Wariner couldn't break 2 for the 800 haha.

Also, joeguy, I'm no expert but with your talent I don't think you'd have to do doubles like you've been doing in order to break 2 minutes. You could do one hard workout a day on your hard days (like 3 hard days/workouts per week(?) and get away with it. You could probably do like 20 miles a week and certainly not 65. But if you want to turn it into a big project then go ahead and do more

How's your training going? Please give us an update. Thanks

Hey guys, I'm in a similar situation to the OP. I'm in high school and am a 52.xx and 2:05 guy. I ran the 800 once last year and ran that 2:05. My coach thinks I'm better suited for the 800. Any advice/training plan for 800m guys or guys moving up from 400 to 800 would be greatly appreciated.

train for the 400 and the 1600m.