Questions about Summer of Malmo

OK. So I’ve got a spreadsheet with the information that all of you have provided for me. In this post I will attempt to explain the rationale behind my methods and ideas.

To start off I recognize that most of you are coming from three groups: 1) high school or college kids who’ve finished up 9 months of training and racing hoping to spring board to next year. 2) post college runners who are trying to stay fit and continue the positive experience of competitive running. 3) Masters runners who have been doing this a long time and have been successful doing what they do and just want another perspective – hoping to rejuvenate. Add a 4th group to that: those who started running to maintain fitness, many of them competitive at other sports. Somehow ran a local road race or a marathon and liked the entire scene so they either joined up with a club, or soaked in as much as they could by reading.

1) Competitive High School Runners – Newly introduced to the sport at a time when their bodies are maturing. Very organized, with plenty of competition opportunities to test them. They are going to improve mainly through three paths, 1) physical maturity 2) accumulated effects of aerobic training, and 3) immediate effects of short-term training.

The immediate effects of short-term training combined with their rapidly maturing bodies will provide the most bang for the buck. Runners are seemingly born overnight. But it is at this time of their athletic development that they lay the tracks down for the most important part of their overall long-term development due to the accumulation of months, then years of training. Get into good habits now and they will come closer to their personal potential than their peers who have beards at 15 and who can bust out interval sessions like no one’s business.

2) Competitive Collegiate Runners – Most of the differences due to maturity have evened out, they now have some years of accumulated training behind them and are exposed to more ideas than before. Many of them have all the answers. This is a time where their native talents start to become exploited. To what degree of exploitation is determined by the individuals own ambitions, and to the opportunities afforded to him by his college situation.

Summer of malmo is mainly geared towards these two groups. I’ve repeated this many times – it is between-season training. It is designed to continue with the development of the athlete without beating him down or making him stale during the Summer. Most college runners either slack off and do the minimum required during the Summer or those who train like maniacs during the Summer with the idea that they are going to be a beast in the Fall. There’s folly in both plans. The guy who trains like a manic runs great in the first few weeks of cross country but eventually becomes stale and by November he’s running like a turkey and he’s on everyone’s table.

3) Masters Runners. Most all have had competitive experience when they were young bucks and have continued their passion into adulthood. Time constraints may impinge on their hobby, but like most hobbyists, whether fishermen, bowlers, bungee-jumpers, mountail climbers, where there’s a will, there is a way.

4) Fitness/competitive Runners – After running that marathon, or that triathlon, or that 10k or a lark, they like the entire scene and decided to become a part of it. Possibly joined a club in hopes of learning more about training. Applied some ideas of their own from their days as an athlete at other sports. Without competitive track experience most of what they are learning is all new, and probably coming from their friends at the local track club who may, or may not have a clue. This, to me, is a great group to target for SOM. Heck, give them an excuse to buy a pair of spikes and experience what it’s all about!

What am I looking for?

When I asked about the paces that you are running for typical workouts and what your PRs are over various distances I’m trying to get a feel about what kind of experience/talents you have. First off, I look at the times of those shorter workouts and the PRs of those shorter events. I’m trying to get a measure of what kind of ‘wheels’ you have. One determined, I then look at your times at those longer distances and interval sessions to try to get a feel about what your aerobic fitness is all about.

When I see someone like ‘thanks malmo!’or ‘SoM;) or ‘Wow, thanks so much’ who shows much slower speeds 200m repeats and also slower at tempos runs or 10k HM races, to me, that is a sign that I’d rather not see them running 1200m or mile repeats, I’d rather have them target repeats in the 400-800m range at paces fast enough to hopefully develop them to the point where they can eventually start running the longer repeats. I’d also like to see them to limit those tempo runs to 3 miles to start with and to lengthen them only when they are comfortable running at that 3 mile pace. I also imagine that this is the group who needs to really focus on those short repeats and try to develop their own native footspeed.

The guy like Equinox2100 or Curious Gregory definitely have some leg speed, and no doubt have been through rigorous competitive seasons before. These would be the guys who could start running all of the SOM recommended sessions from day one, they just need to learn to run them at slower paces than they are used to while training for their competitive seasons. If I were to construct a SOM clinic, I’d make those two guys the anchor tenants. I’d say, “These two guys are going to run 5:20 pace for 5 miles. Figure out how far you can run with them and be comfortable and do it. If it’s only 4 laps, then run two laps and rest while they run a lap then join them again. Continue until they finish their 5 miles.”

“ The rest of you are going to be in the 5:50 group. If you can’t do 5 miles at 5:50 without straining then do as much as you can, rest then jump back in.”

Then I’d say, “You two guys and the girl. I don’t want you to run with the 5:50 group because I want you to run with the 5:20 group. The are going to be running 5:20 pace – that’s 80s per 400. I want you to run 200m with them, wait a lap and run 200m and continue as long as you feel comfortable. If you start feeling like you’re working too hard you can stop, or cut down the time running to 150m.” I just want you to get running like a clock.” When your fitness improves you’ll run 300m next time. Then 400m. ThenI might switch you over to the 5:50 group and have you run 800m or 1000m. Then I might put you in your own group at 6:00 and let you run 3-4 miles. See how it goes.

The two guys and a girl, on those 150m-200m (not the repeats I just talked about) speed days I’d really have them concentrate on becoming faster runners. Accelerate 50m, hit top end and really concentrate in arms, high knees, back-kick and turnover for 50s, stride out the rest of the way. I’d even recommend them running in spikes, even if they’ve never run in spikes before. Just the whole production of lacing up those spikes and sprinting is going to make them start thinking in a different way.

So to get specific 1) week one. 2) week two

Equinox2100

1) 150/200/300 as prescribed in SOM alternates with

2) 800/1000/1200/1600/2000m at 75-80s pace depending on what feels easy to you. You should read that as ‘a bunch of 800s or a bunch of 1200s, or a bunch of 1600s or any mixture of those that you like. I think that repeat 800s or 400s at 68s per lap would be OK for you too.

1-2) Tempo runs You’re doing them now at 5:20. I don’t know how hard you’re doing them, most people are doing them way too hard. I say start off at 5:40 pace(85s)

YouTryna

1) 150/200/300 as prescribed in SOM alternates with

2) 400/800/1000/1200/ at 75s per 400. You can do the 400s at 70s is you wish. You can even run 200s at 35s if you want. About 1:00 – 1:15 rest

1-2) Tempo runs 5:40 pace then adjust

Curious Gregory

1) 150/200/300 as prescribed in SOM alternates with

2) 800/1000/1200/1600/2000m at 75-80s pace depending on what feels easy to you. You should read that as ‘a bunch of 800s or a bunch of 1200s, or a bunch of 1600s or any mixture of those that you like. I think that repeat 800s or 400s at 68s per lap would be OK for you too.

1-2) Tempo runs You’re doing them now at 5:20. I don’t know how hard you’re doing them, most people are doing them way too hard. I say start off at 5:40 pace(85s) Like Equinoz2100 you have great wheels.

SoM Curious

I’m putting you right there is Curious Gregory. Sorry if I didn’t give you individual attention….

SoM:)

1) 150/200/300 as prescribed in SOM alternates with

2) 200/400/600/800/1000/1200 at 75

1-2) 3 mile tempo runs at 5:20 pace. If that feel too hard back off a bit. If it feel too easy and you want to do more, just rest 1:10 after the 3 miles, run a 400m at 80s, rest 1min, 400m at 80s. Do that until full.

HS senior

1) 150/200/300 as prescribed in SOM alternates with

2) 200/400/600/800/1000/1200 at 75-80

1-2) Try running 3 miles at 5:40, if that’s not too hard then go right into 1min rest/400m at 85, and repeat as long as you feel comfortable. Between the repeats at 2) and this we are trying to get your tempos runs faster without killing you.

Max219

1) 150/200/300 as prescribed in SOM alternates with, Really focus here on becoming a faster runner.

2) 1000/1200/1600/2000m at about 85s per lap

1-2) tempos 4-6 miles at what you’re doing now seems ok,

thanks malmo! Some thought here. You need to work on your wheels. You seem to be fine once you get rolling but at the shorter stuff you tend to be slow.

1) 150/200/ as prescribed in SOM alternates with

2) 200/400/600/800/1000/1200 at 85-90s

1-2) I’d stick with 3 mile tempos at 90s and add 400m at 90, 1:00 jog, 400m 90s, 1:00 jog until full

SoM for me another guy with pretty good wheels

1) 150/200/ as prescribed in SOM alternates with

2) 1000/1200/1600/2000m at 77-80s

1-2) tempo 4-5 miles at 80-85s per lap as long as that feels comfortable.

Wow, thanks so much

1) 150/200/ as prescribed in SOM alternates with

2) 200/400/600/800/1000/ at 80-85s per lap pace

3) 3 mile tempo at 90-95s adding on 1:00 rest/ 400m at 90/etc until full

Appreciate it Malmo, thanks.

It's pretty similar to my normal summer schedule, our coach just has us do more fartlek stuff than track stuff over summer.

But, I enjoy the track, and will be abroad this fall (still in the 'states though, so training won't be an issue), so the track sounds fine to me.

These 'workouts' (basically freshening sessions if I'm reading you right) are all on doubles, ya?

I've also read a lot talking about rest time between doubles, what would you recommend? I've heard a strong case for 90min between.

Malmo,

I've been leading summer track workouts, and we now have the critical mass to bifurcate into two good size groups of 4-8 runners. We'll be joined by some HS runners after their track season ends, and I think we can all benefit from a Summer of Malmo. We're all in decent shape heading into the summer, and while we have a few summer races on the calendar, most of us are targeting fall.

The faster group has 5k times in the 15:30-16:30 range, and our interval workout is typically something like 5x1000m at ~3:15 average pace. The distance and number of reps seems to fit into your plan, but would you say the pace is a bit fast for early summer? If I interpret your plan correctly, do you think we should initially drop the distance to maybe 600m or 800m for this faster group?

The second group is mixed with 5k times in the 20-21 minute range. When the fast group does 1000s, they usually do 800s so that we can merge during our recovery laps. When we do 400s, they do 300s, etc. This way, we can jog together without compromising our workouts. For our SOM, I plan to keep the ratios of the distances the same, but shorten them initially and break them into acceleration, sprint and stride as you suggested.

We've already been following your suggestion that in-between runners work out with the faster group, and either taking longer rests or hopping to the slower group when the intensity becomes more than they should sustain for summer training.

Tempo runs on a 1 mile road loop are our plan, starting at 3-4 miles at somewhat slower than 10k race pace.

Thanks,Scott

Malmo- I am curious about what you would suggest for after the SoM for a high school guy running cross country in the fall. What kind of guidelines would you create/do you have for fall training?

First off, thanks for all the advice malmo--it helps.

I just have a few quick questions:

1) when should we start doing these workouts? ie, should we build up to hitting the mileage we are trying to hit for the summer first, or just after a couple weeks of easy running, or right off the bat?

2) do you suggest doing these workouts in spikes, flats, or regular trainers? I was thinking flats for short (150-300) stuff and normal trainers for everything else.

Thanks again

Equinox2100 wrote:

Appreciate it Malmo, thanks.

It's pretty similar to my normal summer schedule, our coach just has us do more fartlek stuff than track stuff over summer.

But, I enjoy the track, and will be abroad this fall (still in the 'states though, so training won't be an issue), so the track sounds fine to me.

These 'workouts' (basically freshening sessions if I'm reading you right) are all on doubles, ya?

I've also read a lot talking about rest time between doubles, what would you recommend? I've heard a strong case for 90min between.

All on double, of course. They should feel easy, although the 150-300 sessions might leave you a bit dizzy afterwards. that's fine.

It's tough for me to get a feel of the actual effort that you are currently putting in and how that compares to the effort level of what I'm proposing, that's why I keep using the 14m 5k runner as an example for how slow some of the efforts could actually be in still be within the scope of SOM.

Interesting stuff! wrote:

Malmo- I am curious about what you would suggest for after the SoM for a high school guy running cross country in the fall. What kind of guidelines would you create/do you have for fall training?

I'm not going to go there. As you can see, by providing a simple open-source schedule like SOM I've opened up a can of worms. By attempting to answer individual specifics as I just did, does not leave me satisfied at all. I do not have a real good feel for each of those individuals yet I tried to wing it anyway.

Trying to tell you what you should do for cross country season would require face time and individual attention. You're not going to get it from me. No offense intended.

I've seen lots of SOM threads, so I was reluctant to click on this one, but I'm glad I did. Lots of good advice here. Malmo, most generous of you to take the time to address the specifics of a number of posters.

mucho gracias wrote:

First off, thanks for all the advice malmo--it helps.

I just have a few quick questions:

1) when should we start doing these workouts? ie, should we build up to hitting the mileage we are trying to hit for the summer first, or just after a couple weeks of easy running, or right off the bat?

2) do you suggest doing these workouts in spikes, flats, or regular trainers? I was thinking flats for short (150-300) stuff and normal trainers for everything else.

Thanks again

1) Start immediately. Except for the short session. Give yourself a week or two (unless you are already at a 'normal' level of fitness. Remember none of these sessions should be difficult.

2) For me, I NEVER run on the track without wearing spikes. For you, at minimum racing flats for all of these sessions, including the tempo runs. I would prefer that you get a pair of spikes, if you don't have them already, for the shorter session. It will be a better experience. Just putting them on will change your outlook towards the session. They make a difference. And, yes, your calves will get tight afterwards. It will make you a stronger and better runner.

Anyone who skis will their own crappy equipment, or uses rental equipment, then decides one day to rent skis from the demo shop with the latest and greatest equipment, has gone through the same thing. Putting on the good stuff makes you a better skier no matter what your skill level is. Putting on spikes will make you a better runner.

Hey Malmo, great stuff. Not sure if this has ever been asked.

I was injured all track, and now am up to 4-7 a day painless. I do occasionally feel the part of upper leg that was giving problems, but it hasn't been hurting.Injury was a muscular overuse, too much quality

I dont really believe in all the superslow 2 month long specific buildup stuff some books would suggest, but I also really want to be healthy at this point.

Would you start adding doubles soon, purely listen to body, run all slow for a bit (currently my runs are quick given how out of shape I am)... what do you think?

I was out for 3 months, been back for 2 weeks. I'm thinking adding some easy 2 miles in the mornings to complement the 4-7's at night would be a good start, then increasing mileage as I feel good, and adding workouts when I don't feel leg problem at all, hopefully within 2-4 weeks. Sound alright?

Thanks

Thanks again! That's about what I figured SOM entailed, running fast but not overly stressful.

Should be a good summer and I look forward to becoming a better runner.

Scott, you already have SOM going and understand it pretty well. Each of your groups has 'anchor tenants', those who will lead and do the entire workout. The others that run with them are running at the same pace, but are doing distances that are more appropriate for their own level of fitness. Nice. You also understand how to move the 'tweeners' between groups.

As far as whether or not the 15:30 runners running 1000s at 3:15km pace is too hard or not. I don't really have a feel for it. Ask them how they feel. To the second part of the question that they drop the repeats to the 600m to 800m range in order to keep the 3:15km pace. The answer is yes, if they don't want to run slower than 3:15 pace.

As you can see from some of my answers to others, while I precribe slower paces than what many are used to doing in their competitive seasons, at some point I recognize that going too slow isn't going to help them progress. That's why I suggest that they shorten the rep distance, or shorten the tempo distance. I want to see them getting some sort of leg turnover while still running SOM efforts.

To go back to a question by 'jdex' who was asking about the progression of the workouts at the end of the Summer. Yes it would be OK, lets say in August, to drift down towards the intensity levels of the reps that one would normally do. I'd discourage it, but I have no problem with you increasing your intensities in August.

The whole point of SOM is to rejuvenate, maintain and to improve aerobic fitness. For a very competitive college runner (I'm thinking in terms of qualifiers or near qualifiers for Nationals) rejuvenate and maintain are the main emphasis. They are not going to improve aerobic fitness much other than in the context of accumulated fitness.

For most others, rejuvenate and maintain are key goals for their Summer, but an improved aerobic fitness in the short term because of doubles or increased mileage will become a more important benefit of SOM. The benefits of accumulated fitness is always an ongoing leitmotiv here, as it is with any other training system. Which provides a neat seque to another topic that I often see. Many runners listen and accept that their ultimate success will be the result of the accumulated effects of training in the long term. A few of them process that concept all wrong, and come to the conclusion that "since the long term is so important, I'm going to make a long-term plan and ignore the short term, the races and training that goes with it." So they decide to stop racing and start training for some far-off goal in the future. Long-term DNA is made up of short-term proteins. You don't climb a ladder by saying that you're going to wait until you can climb the top few rungs, you climb a ladder by stepping on the bottom rung now. then the next rung, and the next -- until you finally get to the top rung. Immediate action is part of the long term results.

"Don't waste good time" -- John Ngugi

The element of physical maturity and current training is most important for high schoolers.

As they become college runners the element of physical maturity becomes less important and the effects of immediate fitness and accumulated fitness start to become more important. Those who have gone through 9 months of organized competitive running need to recover and rejuvenate. While I have no problem with runners taking off completely for a few weeks, it is not necessary,with a plan of action like SOM.

All of these runners can train together. That' the whole point of SOM.

Just as advertised, SOM is "all things to all runners".

Make sense to you?

By the way, SOM, once you've agreed to the User Agreement, is owned by you. It now becomes "Summer of NYLOCO."

A perfect example of the true spirit of SOM:

http://archive.dyestat.com/?pg=reg72008CrossCountrySummer-of-the-Rising-Tidestory

Malmo,

I am someone who best fits your 4) category person, and have decided I want to get as serious as possible because I enjoy running so darn much.

As a rising junior in college I obviously don't have a specific season coming up, and was wondering if SoM is still the best option given that situation.

I have about a year and a half of inconsistent running under my belt, with two 4 month periods where I averaged 35, and 50 mpw; in between those was very sporadic running. I'm definitely slow, with a 5:51 best mile time and a 20:23 best 5k time.

Just looking for some advice on where to start my development as a runner, assuming I want to ultimately come as close to maxing out my potential as I can. Any advice on what I should be doing is greatly appreciated.

So, I have been looking through this thread, and have one question. What sort of rest should you take after the longer repeats? I see that you're to take full recovery for the shorter repeats.

malmo wrote:If you want my opinion on exact paces for you to do then answer me thes questions.

1) How fast can you normally run 10x400m and with what rest?

2) How fast/far are your normal tempo runs?

3) How fast could you normally do 200m repeats, lets say 10-16 of them?

4) how fast can you normally do mile repeats? How many of them? How much rest?

5) What are your best times?

1) About 70s, maybe a little slower with 1 min rest

2) 4-5 miles at 6:10 pace or so

3) Around 32 each with a 200 jog

4) Haven't done them in a while but probably could do 5 of them at 5:40-5:45 w/1-2 mins rest

5) 800: 2:08, Mile: 4:52, 3200: 10:38, 8k XC: 29:30

Obviously my endurance is lacking. Last summer I pushed tempos too hard and couldn't finish them without straining. My best summer was before SR year of HS when we had longer progression runs/tempos were I would go 6-10 miles working down from 6:40s to 6:00s by the end.

Foogo wrote:

Wow. Malmo really does know what he is talking about. It took me until near the end of college to really get that most of the time a good workout is something you do under control. I went through high school thinking "speed days" were all about making it hurt and often going until I crashed.

I climbed the ladder one rung at a time. Was one of the top steeplechasers in the world, an was competitive against the best 1500m runners in Bislett and also against the best marathoners. Broke the WR in the HM, but lost to a skinny little Kenyan who would eventually win a silver medal in the 10k.... and, I'm a fan of the sport. Of course I know my stuff.

A few years ago a friend was in town and over a few beers started talking training. He ran about 4 minutes in the mile in college and without prompting thanked me for my advise -- two decades years later. Now a competitive masters runner, in a very excited and animated fashion he said, "Malmo! I finally get it. You were telling me this stuff over 20 years ago but I never listened. Now it's as clear to me as daylight!"

I told him, "I'll take that as a compliment, then."

I'll take yours as a compliment, as well.

OldXCguy wrote:

I've seen lots of SOM threads, so I was reluctant to click on this one, but I'm glad I did. Lots of good advice here. Malmo, most generous of you to take the time to address the specifics of a number of posters.

You're welcome. Good to see that there's something here even for smart people.

Future D3 Freshman wrote:

So, I have been looking through this thread, and have one question. What sort of rest should you take after the longer repeats? I see that you're to take full recovery for the shorter repeats.

A minute or two ...or three... depending on how you feel.

In need of endurance wrote:

1) About 70s, maybe a little slower with 1 min rest

2) 4-5 miles at 6:10 pace or so

3) Around 32 each with a 200 jog

4) Haven't done them in a while but probably could do 5 of them at 5:40-5:45 w/1-2 mins rest

5) 800: 2:08, Mile: 4:52, 3200: 10:38, 8k XC: 29:30

Obviously my endurance is lacking. Last summer I pushed tempos too hard and couldn't finish them without straining. My best summer was before SR year of HS when we had longer progression runs/tempos were I would go 6-10 miles working down from 6:40s to 6:00s by the end.

I'd probably put you in

1) 150/200/300 as prescribed alternating with

2) 200/400/600/800/1000 at about 80s per 400 (200s at about 37s) take 1:-1:30 between each. Do more of them and/or longer as your fitness improves. But I really would like to see you run 37-38 for 200m for as many as you can. That will reinforced a faster rhythm.

1-2) tempo runs I'd have you run 3miles at about 6:00-6:10 pace then go right into 400s at 85-90s until you are full of it.

The important thing is to try to get you running a touch faster without struggling to do it.

Hey malmo,

Is your SOM schedule you've been talking about also pretty easily adaptable for longer race (e.g. the half marathon i have coming up??)

It's seems really similar to a lot of the stuff i've read about half marathon training with the tempo runs and longer, relaxed, steady intervals. Are there any glaring differences between HM training and this schedule, or would this be a good place to start when developing my plan over the next eight weeks?

Thanks.