Bill Squires Sounds Like A Raging Egomaniac

Nappy Roots wrote:

Threads like this really hits me personally for some reason. I'll try to respond without that showing through.

[bla bla]

You haven't addressed the OP's point though of Squire's claim that none of his athletes had any talent.

Yes, he may have been a great coach, but could he really take a no-talent like me and turn me into a 2:08er?

[quote]craigmac4h wrote:

There's a "talent" in that no, Rodgers wasn't a 5:00 miler in college, but there's "talent" like German Fernandez running 8:34 in high school despite being injured half the time.

I read the whole article, and no, I don't doubt what Squires claims. He might not be the greatest communicator of the 20th century, but I challenge you to name one coach who has had more consistent success in terms of coaching marathoners than Squires. You could make a pretty good argument for Bob Larsen, who addition to Meb coached Kirk Pfeffer and Ed Mendoza to sub-2:10 marathons. The Hansons have done a great job with 2:15-2:16 guys, but I think Sell was the only one they've had under 2:12 so far (though I don't mean to sound like I'm criticizing them, I think they do a great job and will continue to do a great job). What other coach can we even bring up here? Plenty of coaches have had one off success, but as the number of great athletes a coach guides rise, surely it reflects better and better upon the coach?

I think your attempt to trash Squires makes you the fool.

Craig,

Mendoza and Pfeffer were both 2:10 marathoners, not sub 2:10 guys.

Not trying to be nit picky, just like the facts.

No one can deny he is a great coach and inspirational and personally I would love to get my hands on his book. Obviously, he helped a lot of people. Maybe he has been the best Marathon coach ever. That's not the point.

The thing is, he comes across as full of himself and bags other coaches. Why the need? He plays down his athletes' ability? Why?

Other posters are calling him on it. That's fair enough.

close, but not quite wrote:

Craig,

Mendoza and Pfeffer were both 2:10 marathoners, not sub 2:10 guys.

Not trying to be nit picky, just like the facts.

Not at all- thank you for the correction. And to the OP- like I said, there's a difference between "no talent" in an absolute sense and "less talent" as compared to other runners at that level. Squires obviously didn't mean he could take any jerk off the street and make him a world class marathoner, but if we're talking about a guy with decent talent who desperately wants to be good, well, I think Squires could (and did!) do great things with those types.

You're the one who refuses to see anything other than offense and insult people who disagree with you. At least one person on this thread was DIRECTLY COACHED by Squires and clarified Squires' comments, and still you refuse to admit you're wrong.

jesse was a friend wrote:

You are an idiot, and this is irrefutable. I am not disappointed. You, with your low intelligence, possess a propensity for imputing traits to others predicated on nothing.

Feel better now bunky?

The reason that he puts down other coaches is because of the credit that other coaches received when they were not half the coach that he was. Bill Squires was a great coach. Bill Bowerman was a joke. For the record Dellinger (not Bowerman) coached Pre.

To put this in terms that are easier for todays runners to understand. Hansons or Mahon (today's Squires) know more about coaching the marathon than Salazar (today's Bowerman) will ever know. However, Alberto receives more credit.

lilly dipper wrote:

To put this in terms that are easier for todays runners to understand. Hansons or Mahon (today's Squires) know more about coaching the marathon than Salazar (today's Bowerman) will ever know. However, Alberto receives more credit.

Squires had far more success than the Hansons and Mahon have had combined.

21.7y and 47.6y in the 1950's for a distance runner who went on to coach those legends? WOw. Some of whatever ego he may have is quite justified I'd say.

Hodgie-I always remembered that you made a big jump that day, but was just flabergasted that you came in with a 2:28 PR and got it down to 2:12? That is unbelieveable!

Is there one single thing or a number of factors that you think led to such improvement? Were your just destroying your workouts leading up to Boston? What kind of mileage/workouts were you doing that year?

i think you're right, Lilly.Squires is pissed off that others get more recognition and comes across with having a need to impress despite his overwhelming and indisputable success.Nappy Roots, where did your outburst come from? I think you described yourself in your rant.

lilly dipper wrote:

The reason that he puts down other coaches is because of the credit that other coaches received when they were not half the coach that he was. Bill Squires was a great coach. Bill Bowerman was a joke. For the record Dellinger (not Bowerman) coached Pre.

To put this in terms that are easier for todays runners to understand. Hansons or Mahon (today's Squires) know more about coaching the marathon than Salazar (today's Bowerman) will ever know. However, Alberto receives more credit.

You can't know what Squires could have made of you unless you'd run for him. 2:08 is unlikely but the guys he worked with, while not wretched as runners, had no special pedigrees at all. Even Bill Rodgers was a very respectable small college runner but nothing special at all as collegiate runners go. I cannot think of any US coach who got better results from people who had comparable accomplishments before coming to him and would love to know what US distance running would have been like over the past twenty years if we'd sent the cream of each year's NCAA graduating classes to train under him.

That the US governing bodies never made him our national distance coach is sad and while I have never sensed any bitterness in Bill on the few occasions we've spoken, I would not blame him one bit if he does feel some.

Bingo. That was his point.

He recognized his guys were good but they weren't a-listers, that's all.

But more important, in this world of self righteous bloggers and sound bytes, Squires is a character and a legacy of distance running. I love all these Squire stories I hear and the article gave a nice flavor of that. He's the nicest guy and always was a bit of a crackpot. And he says what he thinks, have to respect that.

Earlier someone slammed Squires for his comment about Lydiard & Bowerman; yes, it may of been harsh, but look at Squires' athlete's success at the marathon compared to Lydiard & Bowerman's. So, if Squires was talking strictly about the marathon, his comment was completely justifiable.

break it up wrote:

At the time Squires coached he got a lot of results. Who else out there even knew anything about coaching the marathon? He figured it out. He had great talent to work with but he didn't have all the great talent. His guys overall were more successful. He managed his workouts with an intuitive feel. Something I don't think Alberto Salazar or Vigil even can grasp at the level Squires did.

He had a rare gift. Give him some credit.

.

Telling Bill Rogers that Squires is the sole reason for Bill's success, that Bill is not that talented, is pretty egomanical on Squire's part, no matter how much success he had.

[quote]Stating the obvious wrote:

What he said is very true. How many marathons are being won by Kenyans? Rodgers was special in our time, for sure, but he could never survive in the sub 2:07 world my friend.

Rodgers could not survive in the sub 2:07 marathon world? He ran 2:09 35 plus years ago when virtually nobody else was running that fast. It is not possible that he would have run faster than say Ryan Hall's 2:06 were he in his prime today? It is that obvious to you? Do you know the meaning of obvious?

Coach was at the right place at the right time when a group of runners with desire wanted direction , he gave it to them. His advice and coaching were practical , level headed , low key but directed with purpose. He got the best out of the talent they had. They became believers of their ability and not the hype.

Training as a group gave them a sense of community and stability , Coach kept them headed in right direction.

The sport misses characters like Coach Squires and what he brought to the sport.

Bill won a bronze in world cross country in 1975.

coach d wrote:

About Arthur Lydiard, he says, "Arthur learned more from me than I did from him." Of Bill Bowerman, coach of Steve Prefontaine, he says, "Bowerman didn't know horsecrap."

That pretty much says it all. This coming from a guy who never coached an international medal as far as I know. We are not talking about Dr. Vigil, who had a direct hand in the revival of US distance running and kept up to date weekly on the latest research. In Squires, I see an angry old man whom time has passed by.

This whole thread is spinnig wildy away from the original point.

I dont think anyone is saying Bill isn't a good / great coach. But, reading the article, I have to say he sounds incredibly full of himself.

lamb cannon wrote:

This whole thread is spinnig wildy away from the original point.

I dont think anyone is saying Bill isn't a good / great coach. But, reading the article, I have to say he sounds incredibly full of himself.

And why not, wouldn't you? when you see coaches working with sub 28min/10k runners, and even sub 13, who can't break 2:10.

Egomaniac or not, worked with talent or not, he got the best out of his runners consistently, with all the science and support, most coaches these days can't do that.