the 3000m world record blows my mind every time I watch it

good point!!

hicham also split ~ 4'53, but it was off something ridiculously nonsensical like 2'29/2'24 ( may even have been 2'30/2'23 )

the wr was a virtual no-chancer from the 1st km, but he put in an absolutely suicidal 2nd km & i expected a painful death in the 3rd km - it's a testimony to his greatness that he only cracked just before the bell

worst race he ever ran in his life on the circuit

as for geb, i don't think he ever got better than a 4'56 split, which he pretty much knew meant no wr, as it woud mean a 2'24 last km & he somewhat muted his attempts in the last km

This is better wrote:

Alone for half the race and still runs 12:39

Yes, that was pretty impressive. You can also see how tired he was getting on the last 2 laps.

The 5000 WR definitely doesn't seem to have much give left in it. Geb could only lower it .4 seconds the next year, and KB only another 2 seconds. There don't seem to be any current threats. 12:37 may last a while.

Dayum! wrote:

One of the greatest runs we'll ever see. His form is perfect, total relaxation. It's crazy to think that no one else on the planet would be with 20 metres of him if they ran in the race. It's one of the best bits of pacemaking you'll ever see too. John Kosgei ran amazing just to get to 2k!!

I do think Komen was a bit freak though. If you watch most of his races he has pretty much no kick whatsoever. But I don't think there's ever been a guy so relaxed at 58-60 second pace. Watch his 5k record too for more perfection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8atqt-o5-Y

- sublime.

Last 6 laps of 5k from video.

7:37.22 --- 60.54

8:36.95 --- 59.73

9:xx.xx - - - - -

10:38.96 - 2:02.01

11:40.31 -- 61.35

12:39.75 -- 59.44

ventolin^3 wrote:

you do need to keep it in perspective

- hicham wouda probably been 0.5s of it either way if he hadn't had such a ridiculous route to his 2k split in his 7'23

- morceli was on for potentially a 7'21 in his wr - he ran something ridiculous like 2'24/2'25 in his last 1k

- the indoor 3k is possibly just as good if you use a statistical conversion of ~ 101/102 ( also shows geb was in about 7'21 shape in his 7'26i )

komen got a great set up - others didn't

Vent man, you may be right on all points but Komen was also the only one to break 8:00 for 2 miles and his top 3 marks for 3000 are more dominant (by far factoring in his 7:20) than anyone else. Even if you look at his 2nd and 3rd best marks he's the best, though just slightly better than Geb.

Regarding Geb, he may have been the Eamonn Coghlan of short distances on the indoor track. For example his bests for 1500, 2000 and 3000 indoors are:

3:31

4:52

7:26

But for outdoors:

3:33

4:56

7:26

He's actually slower at 1500 and 2000 outdoors and only 1 second slower for 3000. He ran a lot of fast 3000s outdoors, but only once broke 7:26. Komen did that 3 times:

3000 Metres All Time (Outdoors)

7:20.67 Daniel Komen (KEN) - Rieti, 01/09/1996

Updated as at:12/09/2009 Mark Athlete Nation DOB Pos Venue Date

7:20.67 Daniel Komen KEN 17/05/1976 1 Rieti 01/09/1996

7:23.09 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14/09/1974 1 Bruxelles 03/09/1999

7:25.02 Ali Saïdi-Sief ALG 15/03/1978 1 Monaco 18/08/2000

7:25.09 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18/04/1973 1 Bruxelles 28/08/1998

7:25.11 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28/02/1970 1 Monaco 02/08/1994

7:25.16 Daniel Komen 1 Monaco 10/08/1996

7:25.54 Haile Gebrselassie 1 Monaco 08/08/1998

7:25.79 Kenenisa Bekele ETH 13/06/1982 1 Stockholm 07/08/2007

7:25.87 Daniel Komen 1 Bruxelles 23/08/1996

7:26.02 Haile Gebrselassie 1 Bruxelles 22/08/1997

7:26.03 Haile Gebrselassie 1 Helsinki 10/06/1999

7:26.62 Mohammed Mourhit BEL 10/10/1970 2 Monaco 18/08/2000

7:26.69 Kenenisa Bekele 1 Sheffield 15/07/2007

7:27.18 Moses Kiptanui KEN 01/10/1970 1 Monaco 25/07/1995

7:27.42 Haile Gebrselassie 1 Oslo 09/07/1998

7:27.50 Noureddine Morceli 1 Bruxelles 25/08/1995

7:27.59 Luke Kipkosgei KEN 27/11/1975 2 Monaco 08/08/1998

One thing that is not up for discussion is that Komen had perfect pacing and that played a major factor, but even outside of the 7:20 his quality at 3000 and 2 miles stands out above the rest.

It puts it in perspective that we're getting ramped up for a couple americans this weekend, hoping that they'll race near 7:30. Maybe we are making too much out of the 7:30 barrier given what has happened with 13:00 and 27:00 recently?

On a bit of a side note, I thought the progression of the WR for two miles was interesting. Starts with Komens mentor Kiptanui, then Geb, then Komen, then Geb, then Komen. Also kind of cool to note that Tegs best mark would have beaten Kiptanuis and even Gebs WR the first time he set it:

8:09.01 Moses Kiptanui (KEN) 1994-06-30 Hechtel, Belgium

8:07.46 Haile Gebrselassie (ETH) 1995-05-27 Kerkrade, Netherlands

8:03.54 Daniel Komen (KEN) 1996-07-14 Lappeenranta, Finland

8:01.10 Haile Gebrselassie (ETH) 1997-05-31 Hengelo, Netherlands

7:58.61 Daniel Komen (KEN) 1997-07-19 Hechtel, Belgium

Correction, Geb broke 7:26 twice not once, but my point still stands as Komen did it 3 times.

geb didn't run a "serious" 1500 outdoor - that's why his best was 3'33 - those indoor 1500s were pretty much it for his career - & they are damn fast !

similarly, no real serious outdoor 2k, just early season attempt at weak indoor record

here are some interesting stats which showed how komen was very fortnate with his 2k split

- komen 7'20.67 / 4'53.4

- hicham 7'23.09 / 4'53.56 ( see above how messed up he got there )

- saidi-thief 7'25.02 / outside 5'00 !!

- geb 7'25.09 / 4'56.43

- morceli 7'25.11 / 5'00+ !!

- geb 7'25.54 / 4'59.7

- geb 7'26.02 / 4'56.1

- geb 7'26.03 / 4'57.8

geb's 2 best runs are interesting : run in same month, he ran 7'25 both times, one off 4'56 & another off 4'59 !

to run essentially the same 3k off 2 widely differing 2k splits ( best which was 3s slower than komen ) suggests bad luck with splits & that obviously he had lot more to give

in summary, he ran 4 top 3ks above, averaging

7'25.67 off average 2k split of 4'57.51

he never got offered close to prequiste 4'53

also morceli & the thief ran 7'25s off 2ks outside 5'00 !

both wouda been good for at least 7'22/7'23 off even pace & morceli likely quicker as he had better 1500 speed

komen's time has had a lot of fortune based on the misfortune of those behind him...

My favorite quote in the entire race is:

"You've got to wonder where he's getting the energy from..."

(I think he ran a really hard 13:02 or something a few days before and looked tired doing it.)

What the hell is the matter with you, slandering the names of people you don't even know. You're a very small stupid person.

Good points, but one question could be how well could they have handled 4:53 at 3000? That would be a second of Gebs 2000 PR. Granted that may be a soft PR, but who knows?

Rember that Komen ran 3:29, 3:46 and 4:51! If you contrast that with what he ran for 5000 (12:39) it really seems like he was made for 3000. Geb would seem slightly inferior for 3000 coming thru 2000 at 4:52 with bests of 3:31, 3:52, 4:52 and also 12:39.

Another point of note, Komen ran 7:24 INDOORS, that is the 3rd fastest 3000 time ever!

It's pretty interesting to compare Komen and Geb from 1500-5000 both indoors and out. They line up really really close.

Komen

Personal Best - Outdoor

Performance Wind Place Date

1500 Metres 3:29.46 Monaco 16/08/1997

One Mile 3:46.38 Berlin 26/08/1997

2000 Metres 4:51.30 Milano 05/06/1998

3000 Metres 7:20.67 Rieti 01/09/1996

Two Miles 7:58.61 Hechtel 19/07/1997

5000 Metres 12:39.74 Bruxelles 22/08/1997

Personal Best - Indoor

Performance Wind Place Date

2000 Metres 4:58.77 Budapest 05/02/1999

3000 Metres 7:24.90 Budapest 06/02/1998

Two Miles 8:16.89 Birmingham, GBR 18/02/2001

5000 Metres 12:51.48 Stockholm 19/02/1998

Geb

Personal Best - Outdoor

Performance Wind Place Date

1500 Metres 3:33.73 Stuttgart 06/06/1999

One Mile 3:52.39 Gateshead 27/06/1999

2000 Metres 4:56.1 Bruxelles 22/08/1997

3000 Metres 7:25.09 Bruxelles 28/08/1998

Two Miles 8:01.08 Hengelo 31/05/1997

5000 Metres 12:39.36 Helsinki 13/06/1998

Personal Best - Indoor

Performance Wind Place Date

1500 Metres 3:31.76 Stuttgart 01/02/1998

2000 Metres 4:52.86 Birmingham 15/02/1998

3000 Metres 7:26.15 Karlsruhe 25/01/1998

Two Miles 8:04.69 Birmingham 21/02/2003

5000 Metres 12:50.38 Birmingham, GBR 14/02/1999

El G on the other hand probably could have handled the 4:52 at 2000 and liked it:

Personal Best - Outdoor

Performance Wind Place Date

800 Metres 1:47.18 02/06/1995

1000 Metres 2:16.85 Nice 12/07/1995

1500 Metres 3:26.00 Roma 14/07/1998

One Mile 3:43.13 Roma 07/07/1999

2000 Metres 4:44.79 Berlin 07/09/1999

3000 Metres 7:23.09 Bruxelles 03/09/1999

5000 Metres 12:50.24 Ostrava 12/06/2003

Personal Best - Indoor

Performance Wind Place Date

1000 Metres 2:20.11 Liévin 22/02/1998

1500 Metres 3:31.18 Stuttgart 02/02/1997

One Mile 3:48.45 Gent 12/02/1997

2000 Metres 5:02.70 Gent 23/02/2001

3000 Metres 7:33.73 Liévin 23/02/2003

Two Miles 8:06.61 Liévin 23/02/2003

With a 4:44 2000 PR, he actually should have been able to come thru in 4:50-4:51 and keep the wheels on the wagon.

Kept saying 4:52 for the 2000 split, meant 4:53.

your forgetting to convert geb's indoor times

i use 101/102

3'31.76i ->~ 3'29.7 - close enough to komen's 1500

both komen's/geb's 2k are of little use - komen didn't really try it & geb's 4'52.86i wr was an attempt just to clip coughlan's ancient & weak 4'54.07i wr

his 4'52.86i ->~ 4'50.0, but i'd much more likely say that kennster's 4'49.99i was more like his ability ( remember 2k is only 500m more than 1500 & geb is a far superior 1500 guy to kennster who's got soundly thrashed 2 of the 3 times he ran against elite 1500ers & about 3'31 looked his limit )

4'49.99i ->~ 4'47.2 which is more like it

you have to remember though, 2k lists are very weak & only saidi-thief has run one close to potential

in summary, geb is virtually identical to komen over 1500/5k & by implication shoud be over 3k

Prejudice Bigot wrote:

What the hell is the matter with you, slandering the names of people you don't even know. You're a very small stupid person.

He's one of the fatsos at T&FN.

Has probably never run a step in his life.

another arkansan wrote:

If another athlete ran a 13:02, 12:46 and 7:20 close to each other would you not accuse this guy?

His whole profile fits that off a doper: knocks huge chunks of time off of his PR's, quick recovery, quick rise and fall to fame.

Ramzi, Sanchez, Ritz, Teg, Solinski, Rowbury.

enerbit wrote:

another arkansan wrote:

If another athlete ran a 13:02, 12:46 and 7:20 close to each other would you not accuse this guy?

His whole profile fits that off a doper: knocks huge chunks of time off of his PR's, quick recovery, quick rise and fall to fame.

Ramzi, Sanchez, Ritz, Teg, Solinski, Rowbury.

Solinsky and Teg? Seriously? Quick rise and fall?

Teg was 5th at junior world cross, Solinsky footlocker champ.

Teg ran 13:04 in 2006, Solinsky 13:12 in 2007.

They've also run 7:34 and 7:36 (respectively) in years past which is very complimentary of 13:0X. Teg hit 8:07 2M prior to 12:58 in 2010 and that is certainly indicative of sub 13:00. Neither Kennedy or Lagat have broken 8:10 for two miles.

People were wondering for years when Teg would get under and why Solinsky was knocking at the door.

They've been around for a while on a steady up trend. Like any graph the line wavers but trends up.

A white person first ran 13 minutes like 30 years ago and now the fastest one is 5 seconds faster? Considering the development of tracks, shoes, gear, nutrition, knowledge, rabbits and competition, 5 seconds is not even a step forward.

Your knowledge is limited while your libel/implications are massive.

I know of an average tier 2 NCAA runner who couldn't run 8:40/13:50 during college was never top 15 at NCAA cross never top 5 at ncaa track, heck never even a conference champion, but managed 8:2X, 13:1X & 27:5X shortly after graduating.

That's the kind of progression you can expect with EPO and it's a world of difference.

Don't mind him, he's been trolling all day. He's the kind of guy who is angry, jealous, and skeptical of anyone successful. Never mind if it was a well documented and understandable progression like Teg's, Solinsky's (with a 'Y'!!!), etc. If someone is running well, he must be doping!

Komen ran his 12:39 (the first sub 12:40) being alone for half the race.

Red fox wrote:

Don't mind him, he's been trolling all day. He's the kind of guy who is angry, jealous, and skeptical of anyone successful. Never mind if it was a well documented and understandable progression like Teg's, Solinsky's (with a 'Y'!!!), etc. If someone is running well, he must be doping!

You say "don't mind him" but then you explain why I am angry, jealous and skeptical of anyone sucessful? Why don't you follow your own advice and "don't mind him"?

But since it's too late. Teg's and Solinski's preogression is anything but understandable. Why is it they have a bell curve of performances unlike ANY other 12:55-13:00 runner? Kennedy, on the other hand, has a bell curve very much like EVERY African. That is, they have the outlier, in his case a 12:58 and then a regular distribution of times that are slightly slower. I can't tell you how many times Kennedy ran faster than 13:08, and those times are distributed over his career in a normal fashion. Same could be said for typical fast Africans, who might have a PR of 12:52 and about a dozen times under 13:00.

And then there's Teg, who was a 13:20 guy and then has his oulier 13:04 and that fast two miler, then has a second outlier 12:58. Then he goes back to being the 13:20 guy.

And don't even get me started on Solinski, 13:12, 13:18, 13:18 outliers, and then bam, hes a 27:00, 12:55 guy. And how bout that Ritz, who is probably the only guy in the history of track to run a 12:56 after two years of marathon training and than decides to run the marathon again! An event which he sucks in. Hey, I am one of the fastest accidental 5000 meter runners in the world but I think I will return to the marathon and earn zero in prize money. Like Don King says,"Only in America."

You have to be joking, seriously.

Ask yourself this, what was Tegs 3000 PR from 4 or more years ago? As mentioned guy was 5th at world junior cross! Hello!

Teg was 4th at worlds for 5000 in 2007. What was Kennedy's highest finish. Teg was injured all spring and is back injured now. He usually opens up with a 13:2X and then gets faster as the season goes on, if he isn't INJURED!

Solinsky ran 7:36 and 13:12 his first year out. He ran a fantastic 3000 last year at PRE and looked like he was on the level for 13:00.

I was one of a few that were thinking he was a contender for 13:00 LAST YEAR. We weren't making stuff up, we were talking based on what we saw from him. For Solinsky it was always his head. Wanting it too bad and forcing it, puttering out on the last lap of a race at 12:5X-13:0X pace.

I hope you are trolling, because that is nonsense. You cannot compare times run while in the NCAA to times run on the euro circuit, which should be an elementary concept.

FYI Kennedy went from 13:28 the year he graduated college to 13:14 the next summer. 2 seconds shy of where Solinsky was at that point and Solinsky came from 13:30.

Apologize for the tone, but do not like your implications.