How do I get a runner to lift up their legs more (if that's a good thing) and not "shuffle" so much?

uli wrote:

jr26run wrote:

The key is to simply place the foot on the ground behind the center of gravity. The faster you can do this, and the farther behind the center of gravity, the faster you will run.

I think I know where you're trying to go with this, but:

as a matter of physics, at a steady speed your feet *have* to land in front of your center of gravity, or you'll fall down. The point is to try to minimize that front-side distance, and especially to try to have the feet moving backward as they land, to reduce the braking moment that you encounter on each step.

Leading with the knee, rather than with the foot, makes it easier to have the foot moving backward as it contacts the running surface--just another benefit of getting the knees up (at faster speeds).

The foot does land a minimum amount in front of the center of gravity when running at even pace. When picking up speed, the landing is increasingly behind the center of gravity. The speed is a function of the landing position and momentum.

what really now wrote:

jr26run wrote:

Pushing off harder doesn't make you go faster. For example, put one foot in front of the other, push off as hard as you can with both feet, and you won't go anywhere. Push off hard with the back foot while the other is in front and you won't go anywhere either.

The key is to simply place the foot on the ground behind the center of gravity. The faster you can do this, and the farther behind the center of gravity, the faster you will run.

Thanks to Jack Nirenstein for pointing this out. He has a few videos on youtube.

i see your point, but surely pushing off harder DOES make you go faster. However, the push must be behind your center of gravity.

Poetry in motion.

All is not rosy, though. While she has remained injury free, she has felt like, to use her word, “crap,” while running. Her body was very efficient running the old way, and she is very inefficient running the new way. It’s going to take another month or two before her new form begins to feel better.

According to McMillan, Paige Higgins has a stride rate of 200-215 and he wants to change it to 180.

Lasse Viren's stride rate was 200 throughout his Olympic 10k's, and up to 214 at the finish, though at a greater speed, but also he was almost 6 feet tall.

Olga Bondarenko's stride rate was 208 spm and Yelena Zhupiyava's was 204. Rosa Mota's was 200 in the marathon. More importantly the stride rate depends on the height, inseam, an the style of the runner. McMillan is tall and also ran the 1500, a relatively short race. It is not reasonable to except a woman marathoner of much less height to have a similar stride rate to him.

the real key to running is raising your center of gravity. I suggest belly button surgery.

jr26run wrote:

The foot does land a minimum amount in front of the center of gravity when running at even pace. When picking up speed, the landing is increasingly behind the center of gravity. The speed is a function of the landing position and momentum.

No your foot must land in front of your CM even while picking up speed.

I know what you're getting at, but it's not physically impossible. If one had incredibly strong ankles and calves, one could do it (ski jumpers probably have a good shot at it).

Kneeliftin wrote:

It is physically impossible to place your front (landing) foot behind your center or mass without falling flat on your face.

question...... wrote:

I have a runner who, at paces over 8:30 min/mile (or even 8) barely lifts their legs. It is only for faster paces that they start to lift their legs more, but it just looks strange when they barely lift their legs for easy runs and almost a shuffle or something. Is this "efficient", or is it better if they lift their legs more etc. (and this looks better/better form)?

It just means that this particular runner has that running style. Don't mess with it. As another poster pointed out, many of the best runners have a shuffling style.

jr26run wrote:

The foot does land a minimum amount in front of the center of gravity when running at even pace. When picking up speed, the landing is increasingly behind the center of gravity. The speed is a function of the landing position and momentum.

Kneeliftin wrote:No your foot must land in front of your CM even while picking up speed.

Try this, stand in the middle of the room. Now, place one foot on the ground in front of your body and try to go forward. You can't do it, see. This is because to increase your speed, the only way is to fall forward from your feet.

Standing implies momentum = 0. Not true when running. Leg muscles can pull with greater force to impart an increase in momentum when running since the body is already in motion. Much hard to do (if not impossible) when standing at rest. So your example doesn't hold up as proof of anything outside of itself.

you could always try taking her out to dinner first.

The Man Who Loved Women wrote:

Standing implies momentum = 0. Not true when running. Leg muscles can pull with greater force to impart an increase in momentum when running since the body is already in motion. Much hard to do (if not impossible) when standing at rest. So your example doesn't hold up as proof of anything outside of itself.

Momentum is why you can land with the foot slightly in front of the body when keeping the same speed.

Most of running is keeping the same speed.

But to increase your speed, the feet need to land behind the center of gravity.

Tell that to sprinters.

He's trying to sell you the Pose dogma. No point arguing with him, you might as well argue with a creationist.

form drills 2-3 times a week

Not pose, and not some bogus nerve theory either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4vg3-aOGfs

Great to see noted biomechanics expert "jr26run" is so willing to spend his time here explaining his depth of knowledge in excruciating and elucidating detail.

jr26run....

just to make sure,

you do agree that pushing off the ground harder leads to faster running, right?

F=ma?

It's probably efficient.

Ideally a runner's centre of gravity should not move up and down too much when running at their target pace.

I know plenty of 800/1500 runners who look really 'bouncy' warming up or doing an easy run, but they are actually wasting energy at that pace. In a race, they look smooth and level.

The problem occurs when the runner needs the speed and can't turn it on. If your guy hit 6:00 miles and still seemed to be shuffling, it might be down to a lack of leg strength in various muscles.