20 miler at MP + 15 econds.

I'd consider either doing it more than three weeks before a marathon, or alternatively just do a portion of it (e.g.) final 8 miles at that speed and the first 12 miles at easy pace.

I did a HM at race pace two weeks before my marathon and then did a marathon in 2:36 which was a ten minute PR this spring, however.

WannaBdecent wrote:

Figure this will be a huge confidence builder for the race,....

Why would it be a confidence boost? You would prove that you can run 20 miles near your current PR pace. I'm baffled.

Because I know that in a race setting, tapered, flats on, etc, running 10-20 seconds/mile faster will probably be a similar effort. So I'll know that getting to 20 will be no problem.

I am going to do 13 and 15 mile workouts AT MP leading up to this. But I think 17 or 20 at MP may be too taxing of an effort at this stage in my marathon career. Want to save that effort for the race itself.

I think the workout is too hard and you are likely to either have a disappointing run which shakes your confidence or a run that breaks you down before your marathon. 20 miles at MP in training sounds nuts. Does anyone do that?

WannaBdecent wrote:

Because I know that in a race setting, tapered, flats on, etc, running 10-20 seconds/mile faster will probably be a similar effort. So I'll know that getting to 20 will be no problem.

I am going to do 13 and 15 mile workouts AT MP leading up to this. But I think 17 or 20 at MP may be too taxing of an effort at this stage in my marathon career. Want to save that effort for the race itself.

The Hansons seem to do a lot of 20-22m long runs at MP + 30s.

I think one of the guys who ran 2:18 at Chicago last year mentioned doing 20m at MP+20s a few weeks before.

MP + 15-30s for that workout sounds about right; somewhere in that range

You would be better of doing something like this and going 14 to 15 miles.

20 is right on that fine line.

WannaBdecent wrote:

Because I know that in a race setting, tapered, flats on, etc, running 10-20 seconds/mile faster will probably be a similar effort. So I'll know that getting to 20 will be no problem.

I am going to do 13 and 15 mile workouts AT MP leading up to this. But I think 17 or 20 at MP may be too taxing of an effort at this stage in my marathon career. Want to save that effort for the race itself.

Do a good session two or three days before, then carbo load and you'll be fine. But if it's windy, then avoid running too much into the wind, which means finding a suitable course, and maybe someone to help drive you home.

WannaBdecent wrote:

So I'll know that getting to 20 will be no problem.

Getting to 20 is never a problem. The last 6 is the problem, and this workout will tell you nothing about that.

I like the old sayings:

"The race starts at 20 miles"

And:

"When you get to 20, you're half way there"

But I'm sure the OP knows that and the other advice, Don't start too fast.

When people slow down in the last few miles they rarely miss out on running the time they shoulda run, by more than a minute or two, unless they go off waaay too fast, so long run at close to race pace is a good indicator of race fitness.

That seems like a hell of a workout. I agree with the guy on 14-15 at that pace, just warm up and cool down longer to make it a long day.

To 2 posters:

1) I know the last 10 is the hardest. Been there, done that twice. But no workout I do is going to test me for that last 10k. I just need to prepare the best I can and hope that the cumulative training over a period of time is going to get me through that last 6-7 miles.

2) I have and will continue to do 13-15 miles AT RACE pace in the middle of a long run. So doing 14-15 15-30 seconds slower then that isn't exactly what I am looking for here...

+30s (or even +20) is a lot different than MP. +30 MP is the high end of easy running for elite guys.Personally I think you would be better with ~10 easy and then closing the last ~10 at mp than doing a long run. An exception might be if you think your problems is concentration but even then +20 is easy enough that you don't need the same focus.And if your not running elite times, I would be careful about using elite distances. If a guy like Hall goes out for an hour run at MP, he is going to do 12+ miles. A 2:36 guy is going to do 10,

sum dude.... wrote:

The Hansons seem to do a lot of 20-22m long runs at MP + 30s.

I think one of the guys who ran 2:18 at Chicago last year mentioned doing 20m at MP+20s a few weeks before.

MP + 15-30s for that workout sounds about right; somewhere in that range

I was always under the impression that the Hanson's argued for fewer miles in an long run, based on these two articles.

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=12151

http://runningtimes.com/Print.aspx?articleID=4447

Agree with everyone else that MP + 30 is very different than MP + 10/15. When you factor in weather, flats, crowd support, aid stations, etc. MP + 10/15 could be harder than race effort leaving you mentally fatigued and burned out.

What's wrong with a 10 / 10 -- 10 easy pace, like MP + 45-60, and follow with 10 at MP? To me that gives you the confidence boost w/o it being too taxing of a work out. That's the Terrence Mahon / Ryan Hall technique. Or do a 26k at MP ala Hansons.

That is what I did, except I had a longer interval before the race. Off the top of my head, I would recommend doing somewhat less distance three weeks out for this experiment.

The several times I did it I ran about 20 miles at 'goal pace minus a few seconds a mile'. I eased back both before and after the run (not like racing a marathon but more than normal for a long run).

I do think easing into it is a good idea. I actually used another marathon for the purpose because it was the same environment and there were the same fluid arrangements, etc. The first time I did it I had almost the same PRs and targets as you. I found that either the measurement of the last five mile interval was off or I was slowing down more than I thought (which was not at all until about 17 by my feelings/sensations) and/or it was net uphill in a steady, not too noticeable way.

Do NOT be discouraged if it is harder than you think it should be because of the tapering effect before the actual marathon, the training effect of this run, and the energizing effect of a race.

The 80-100mpw should be enough if the mileage includes a good selection of pace and does not have too much junk miles in it.

One final thing, for both this effort and the race itself, try to increase the tempo over the course of the run by 10 seconds/mile or possibly even more (more on this run if you are 10-20 seconds slower than MP).

[quote]WannaBdecent wrote:

I just need to prepare the best I can and hope that the cumulative training over a period of time is going to get me through that last 6-7 miles.

quote]

The training won't mean CRAP if you go out at a pace you aren't capable of running. PROPER PACING is what will get you through that last 10k.

If you check out the difference between 15 and 20 miles on McMillan, you will see there is a HUGE difference in pace of about 10 seconds. Running that 20 miler at race pace would be equal to running that 15 miler at race pace-10sec.

Do what feels right.

Mr Mountain wrote:

Would you critique what I wrote above; this was sparked especially by your comment about going too hard in the first part of a marathon, which I did not emphasize enough. I would be interested in the parts you concur with and those you are not sure about and those you think dubious. It has been a long time since I could test these things out on myself [currently, I am doing about 2 miles @ 7:00, 5 @ 7:30 and 10@ 7:50, so I cannot probe these things at all.

AstoriaRunner wrote:

I was always under the impression that the Hanson's argued for fewer miles in an long run, based on these two articles.

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=12151http://runningtimes.com/Print.aspx?articleID=4447

Agree with everyone else that MP + 30 is very different than MP + 10/15. When you factor in weather, flats, crowd support, aid stations, etc. MP + 10/15 could be harder than race effort leaving you mentally fatigued and burned out.

What's wrong with a 10 / 10 -- 10 easy pace, like MP + 45-60, and follow with 10 at MP? To me that gives you the confidence boost w/o it being too taxing of a work out. That's the Terrence Mahon / Ryan Hall technique. Or do a 26k at MP ala Hansons.

Hansons recommends that good to elite runners go 20 to 22 miles for a long run (no more), but that middle of the pack runners shouldn't focus on the long run at the expense of the rest of their training. Kind of like Malmo's stance, I'd say.