How are NY girls teams always so good and dominant every year?

Womans sports are less competitive depth wise (compare the diff between top 10 times) which makes it easier to coach up your average runner to be a scorer.It isn't hard to come up with a training program to be a good high school girls program(50 mpw year round, tempo run a week, some strides gets you 90% there) but getting 40 teenagers to buy in is much harder.ur league in

Percy Lydiard wrote:

Gus wrote:

Coaching, coaching, coaching.....

Yea, the coaches in upstate NY know things the rest of us don't know. The odd thing is is that what they know works best for girls, doesn't have quite the same effect on boys or at least not consistently the same effect.

Conundrum wrote:

Upstate runners rule the state and the country. Why?

Intelligence. It has some the best Universities/Colleges in a small area in the nation (Colgate, Cornell, Syracuse, Lemoyne, Hamilton, and many others) The kids and the coaches are smart.

Work ethic. People in upstate don't believe in free rides. People there are not given much but earn everything they have. The kids on teams work hard just like parents.

Discipline. It can be tough in upstate and the people are consistent and success oriented. They learn to work through many obstacles. They are goal oriented.

Its a special breed.

This poster is 100% correct. I grew up here and have lived in a few other areas in the country, and there is absolutely nowhere else with this attitude, drive, and team-oriented running. Also XC is a big sport upstate- it does get media coverage and it is cool to be on the xc team because of the history that many programs have. Runners and teams are respected here.

It's because this is the sign leading into the city of Saratoga Springs:

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs134.snc1/5740_1152948183856_1232190384_30809302_3385195_n.jpg

COACHING and the overall XC/Distance program is a HUGE one...but so is NY in general...upscale, elite, & liberal

why do you think inner city schools suck at distance running but kick butt at sprinting?

FM would've been top 5 with hatz

I know someone who ran HS in upstate NY, and she said that some coaches have their girls snort B12 powder before their races. Regardless of whether this is true, whether it would help if it were true, it does reflect a certain "hardcore" attitude.

I definitely think it has to do with type of work that their parents do and weather. There is a unique combination of academics (financially stable, active people) blue collar (tough workers), and corporate work ($$$) in the Albany area. This creates a good mix to have kids training hard, and why areas like Boulder or Eugene might have the elite athletes, but doesn't develop enough HS talent because of the lack of mix of kids. Weather is also important, because there are nice days, but also some crappy winter days that tough them up. Allows them to be ready for all conditions. Also, the Albany area has a lot of trails and great places to run.

I agree.The only secret is hard work.

Sub 3:00 wrote:

I definitely think it has to do with type of work that their parents do and weather. There is a unique combination of academics (financially stable, active people) blue collar (tough workers), and corporate work ($$$) in the Albany area. This creates a good mix to have kids training hard, and why areas like Boulder or Eugene might have the elite athletes, but doesn't develop enough HS talent because of the lack of mix of kids. Weather is also important, because there are nice days, but also some crappy winter days that tough them up. Allows them to be ready for all conditions. Also, the Albany area has a lot of trails and great places to run.

But once again, it only works for the girls. The boys are shit out of luck.

Boys running is much more competitive nationwide than girls running is. Girl's is catching up but still not there. Any one that doesn't understand why it is easier to coach girls has never coached them. Girls listen, the follow instructions to the tee, they are able to harness their natural bitchiness and apply it toward their racing.

Getting a coaching job in an upstate NY High School is competitive. These programs take pride in their teams and make sure to only hire competent replacements who often grew up in the area and have an understanding as to what it takes to be competitive. To have a nation beater girls' team all you need is some vision and theory and 30 girls that weight 110 pounds or less. From there you lay out a training plan and let them go to work. They don't question theory, they don't say why should I, they just do as they are told.

Trust me the Albany area is not great for running. BH and Shen are stuck on the roads most runs. Queensbury and Toga have it better but that isn't the reason for their dominance. Upstate NY is also full of active communities. Both Saratoga and Queensbury are very active communities.

NYboysHahaha wrote:

[quote]Sub 3:00 wrote:

But once again, it only works for the girls. The boys are shit out of luck.

Have you not been around in the last 5-10 years? NY consistently turns out top Boys AND Girls teams- although the girls seem to do better on a national level, teams like FM, Shen, Toga, Burnt Hills, North Rockland, etc. are consistently good year in and year out. This year was down year for the NY boys I think.

F-M wouldn't have just been top 5 with Hatz... they would have had an excellent shot at WINNING. Just based off of last years' fitness he would have been top 10 in that race barring accident, and he was better in track than he was in cross (national runner up in the mile at NON unless I'm mistaken?). That knocks 100 points off their score and bumps every other team up 4-5 points, which if you check the math would give F-M the win.

I ran in the midwest for 7th/8th grade then moved to one of the previously mentioned upstate powerhouses for high school then went on to run for a decent DI program the answer is 100% culture. In the midwest it was weird that I was an athlete not on the football team. I ran on a team with 25 people total, boys and girls. Breaking 5mins in the mile as an 8th grader made me a god. When I moved to NY it was a completely different atmosphere. There was over 100 boys and 75 girls on the team. The team is up at 8am every day all summer running and that group is 20+ in size. Their parents run, they are expected to run and the football team is a bunch of clowns. Hard work is expected and rewarded, and I know for a fact that is similar among these schools. When I left for college I was disappointed at the lack of competitiveness I found comparatively.

It sounds like a cummulative thing. Tradition, coaching, dedicated kids, and running is big in the community.

My question is how is the youth running scence in this area?

I agree with everything in this post, except the 100 boys and 75 girls part. As someone who ran in the Syracuse area, there aren't any teams that could draw a turnout like that. Perhaps some of the bigger schools in Rochester or Albany (Shen, for example) could have teams that size, but in section 3 the very biggest teams (liverpool, CNS, etc.) were 40 to 50 members (combined men and women).

I think the point about hard work and running being taken seriously as a sport is huge. We used to meet at a local state park several nights a week over the summer, and many parents of team members would come and organize their own run at the same time. I don't mean to say running is a vogue sport or anything, because it pales in comparison to soccer, lax (a year 'round sport here) and others, but XC is respected by the community.

As for why the women's programs have had more success, I would wager it has something to do with the lack of depth in womens sports. High school girls are much less likely to take athletics seriously than boys, so if you can get a dedicated group of athletes on a decent training program, it is easier to distinguish yourselves from the rest.

Here are my reasons:

1- Upstate NY has great running communities. Several great smaller road races, a few very large and nationally known road races (Boilermaker comes to mind) and many areas have running clubs. Running is a respectable sport there and many people do it.

2- Several college programs with good history and good results in xc/track. Cortland, Geneseo, Syracuse, Ithaca, St. Lawrence. Most cities have a school in the area with a decent team nearby- and a lot of high school runners attend local college meets to see what its like at the next level.

3- I grew up here and I remember running my first track meet in 5th grade and loving it. They start kids young.

4- Good coaches who stick around. These aren't programs where you get a coach for a few years, they move on and they hire someone new, then they move on after 2 seasons, etc. These coaches have been coaching for 10, 20, 30+ years, at the same schools. They have built traditions, made history, and have coached several top runners and teams.

5- Like the other poster said- the XC teams are not seen as the nerdy geeky kids who can't play any other sport. It is an honor to be a part of many XC teams in NY and in many schools the only teams to have success are xc and track.

6- Economics- Upstate NY is a depressed area. In my area it seemed like you were 1 of 2 things- 1- from a hard working family who was blue collar, you were taught that you had to work for what you wanted, it wasn't going to be given to you, or 2- from a screwed up family where parents were losers and kids saw running as their ticket out of town as well as keeping them plenty occupied year round.

Examples:

In the richest family in my town, the mom and dad were teachers. We thought they were loaded.

My parents combined yearly income is $60,000. We didn't get vacations or expensive christmas/birthday presents, and my team didn't get the cool new spikes or nice warmups and uniforms. The question to buy new ones was never even asked.

7- Supportive schools, towns, parents, and alumni. Parents allow the coaches to coach, dont get involved with political BS, and don't complain about coaches being "too hard" on athletes. If you screwed up, you were punished, you took one for the team even if you weren't part of whatever happened, and that was that.

8- Weather- it sucks. We dealt with it and didn't know any better. I went to college in a much warmer climate and was shocked with the lack of tough runners on my team there. I remember teammates running on the treadmills in the gym when it was 30 degrees outside. MAN UP.

In my opinion, more kids these days need to grow up like this.

I coach a NY team that is usually about the 15th-25th best overall year to year. Using the speed ratings from tullyrunners, we are usually better than about half the teams at NXN.

I always wonder why NY is so good, but Texas and Florida are the best in football. Pennsyltucky can trounce NY in football. NY can't play soccer. Why?

There is nothing else going on in NY state. Upstate is like appalachia with higher taxes.

Interesting thread. However, there are many places in the country that have many of the characteristics of update NY; tough weather, blue/white collar mix, good trails, etc.

I think the tradition and history (others have that too) are a big factor. The schools are able to cultivate that and motivate a new set of kids every year. Just think of all the young middle school kids that saw FM win at NXN. They now want to be part of that. I'm sure everyone up there knows aboult the 4 from 'toga that were in the NCAAs.

It is similar to the UK rock bands that were inspired by the Beatles. With the right ingredients, sometimes it only takes one spark to get things moving.