I pose an interesting question regarding 800m/1500m runners running cross country 8ks and 10ks

You're a middle distance runner. I bet you're running your intervals too fast. Probably doing them at 105-120% V02max pace. You're not training for an 800 or a 1500 here. Slow down, and you might speed up.

im not running intervals at this point of the season yet, my workouts consist of hills, tempo runs, and fartleks with some recovery runs and long runs.all of my workouts are anaerobic. only speedwork i am doing is a couple of strides after a couple of runs every week

Somebody wrote:

You're a middle distance runner. I bet you're running your intervals too fast. Probably doing them at 105-120% V02max pace. You're not training for an 800 or a 1500 here. Slow down, and you might speed up.

sorry, meant to say aerobic*

I just meant in general for the last few seasons. You said you stopped improving and actually seemed to be getting worse at cross country, but were improving a lot for your middle distance stuff. Running your intervals significantly faster than v02max is a possible reason for that. You could be running your mile repeats in 4:30 to 4:45 when you more likely should be running them at 5:00 to 5:15 instead. Or if your current 8k fitness is slower than your pr (which is likely, considering you said you haven't pr'd in a while), then even slower intervals might be what you should be doing.

ohh i see.and no my hardest workouts have been hill workouts, which are an all-out effort. other than that, i would say everything else is at my aerobic threshold pace, which is 5:00-5:30 pace. nothing too intense. i work out with the guys on my team, and i usually stay back in the group and take it easy at the beginning and turning it up towards the end. during this cross country season last year, i worked out on my own the two months before the track season started. i think i benefited out of that, but this season it doesn't really matter. whether or not im doing cross country races anymore, im going to be working out with the team. so that will keep my paces in check, i definitely don't push myself to anything like 4:30 mile pace for any repeats.

Somebody wrote:

I just meant in general for the last few seasons. You said you stopped improving and actually seemed to be getting worse at cross country, but were improving a lot for your middle distance stuff. Running your intervals significantly faster than v02max is a possible reason for that. You could be running your mile repeats in 4:30 to 4:45 when you more likely should be running them at 5:00 to 5:15 instead. Or if your current 8k fitness is slower than your pr (which is likely, considering you said you haven't pr'd in a while), then even slower intervals might be what you should be doing.

i don't know why no one's called you out on this: "insurmountable" doesn't mean what you think it does. it refers to an obstacle that is not passable, i.e. "I faced insurmountable difficulties in passing English 101"c&p from merriam-webster:surmount:1 obsolete : to surpass in quality or attainment : excel2 : to prevail over : overcome 3 : to get to the top of : climb4 : to stand or lie at the top ofand then obviously 'insurmountable' means something you can't surmount.

hi wrote:

Anon E. Moso wrote:

what the hell?

i apologize if youre unfamiliar with the english language

nobody has "called me out on this" because this is a running forum. its where people normally come to give and take advice about running. and unless you have any, troll, i dont really care about your quick googling skills or vocab knowledge.that being said, i associate insurmountable with impossible, as in impossible odds in my improvement. it was just a play of words.moving on now..

beentheredonethat wrote:

i don't know why no one's called you out on this:

"insurmountable" doesn't mean what you think it does. it refers to an obstacle that is not passable, i.e. "I faced insurmountable difficulties in passing English 101"

c&p from merriam-webster:

surmount:

1 obsolete : to surpass in quality or attainment : excel

2 : to prevail over : overcome

3 : to get to the top of : climb

4 : to stand or lie at the top of

and then obviously 'insurmountable' means something you can't surmount.

hi wrote:

i apologize if youre unfamiliar with the english language

I also am a middle distance guy who struggled throughout XC in college. Another thing that you could think about and that I found helped me to run my best cross races was race strategy. I found that I ran my best races when I went out conservative and then worked up after 2 miles or so. I talked to my coach and we started running all my races this way, I found that the positive feelings of always passing people helped me to stay focused and positive myself during the whole race which had been a problem before. It also left me with enough in the tank the last mile to use some of my middle distance abilities and really hammer home well. You may want to look at this sort of strategy and discuss it with your coach.

this is a strategy that has worked well for me in the past, i did it every race back then and i had my best races by doing it. So far I've put more responsibility on myself to finish higher in races, so I felt like I needed a better start and so I've been going out with the leaders and have been getting passed instead of passing people the whole race like I used to. If I actually do have any more races for cross this year, I will definitely go back to the way I used to do it.

another option wrote:

I also am a middle distance guy who struggled throughout XC in college. Another thing that you could think about and that I found helped me to run my best cross races was race strategy. I found that I ran my best races when I went out conservative and then worked up after 2 miles or so. I talked to my coach and we started running all my races this way, I found that the positive feelings of always passing people helped me to stay focused and positive myself during the whole race which had been a problem before. It also left me with enough in the tank the last mile to use some of my middle distance abilities and really hammer home well. You may want to look at this sort of strategy and discuss it with your coach.

cool

bump

I really don't like the OP of this thread.

Run more miles.

ok sorry to hear that

dsafdsf wrote:

I really don't like the OP of this thread.

Run more miles.

Am I wrong in thinking that as a middle distance runner I wouldn't benefit from going out conservatively b/c although i'm quicker than the people i race against i'm not as strong over distance and can't finish as well...It seems like if i went out slow i would just stay slow and the runners ahead of me would never come back.

Whereas if i go out fast and slowly fade my overall time will still be quicker than if I went out slow and slightly picked it up/ran evenly

[quote]..... wrote:

nobody has "called me out on this" because this is a running forum. its where people normally come to give and take advice about running. and unless you have any, troll, i dont really care about your quick googling skills or vocab knowledge.

that being said, i associate insurmountable with impossible, as in impossible odds in my improvement. it was just a play of words.

moving on now..[quote]

A play on words? Now you sound even more stupid. Quit while you are ahead.

I think this is pretty much backwards. They can recover better from going out too hard. You can't.

MD800->8k wrote:

Am I wrong in thinking that as a middle distance runner I wouldn't benefit from going out conservatively b/c although i'm quicker than the people i race against i'm not as strong over distance and can't finish as well...It seems like if i went out slow i would just stay slow and the runners ahead of me would never come back.

Whereas if i go out fast and slowly fade my overall time will still be quicker than if I went out slow and slightly picked it up/ran evenly

your slow twitch muscles are the same as everyone elses slow twitch muscles, yours are just untrained because you view yourself as a sprinter. To become good at the 8k you're going to have to train like an 8k runner. Put in more miles during the summer and stop making excuses.

I must say... no one cares about D2 runners......end of thread

another option wrote:

I also am a middle distance guy who struggled throughout XC in college. Another thing that you could think about and that I found helped me to run my best cross races was race strategy. I found that I ran my best races when I went out conservative and then worked up after 2 miles or so. I talked to my coach and we started running all my races this way, I found that the positive feelings of always passing people helped me to stay focused and positive myself during the whole race which had been a problem before. It also left me with enough in the tank the last mile to use some of my middle distance abilities and really hammer home well. You may want to look at this sort of strategy and discuss it with your coach.

Different things work for different people. This approach works for a lot of mid-distance guys who are running college cross.

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The OP has experimented with higher mileage and not benefited from it. While aerobic work is important, it need not (all) come from running; for instance, instead of the long run on Sunday, some mid-distance types have done an endurance tetrathlon (or triathlon or pentathlon), e.g. 20-30min run, 20-30min bike, 20-30min elliptical, and 20-30min pool (swim and/or water running). Your heart gets that aerobic work; your legs avoid the pounding.

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To a mid-distance guy, the opening pace in cross is going to feel very easy; it's *maintaining* the pace that's hard. Related to that, it's tough for a lot of MD runners to maintain mental focus throughout a 25-30min race. In some contrast to the advice quoted above, what works for some is to run the race in a more fartlek fashion, say by doing this:

1) Going out at a good pace, maybe for 600-1000m, then easing back from it *before* you're forced to do so;

2) Finishing strongly, say the last 800-1200--"No one can live with me here!";

3) In between, running well in spurts of 1-2mins, verying with the course--if you have good turnover, for instance, just try to keep a moderate pace as you go uphill, but then crest the hill well and let yourself roll on the downhill, staying perpendicular to the slope instead of leaning back. Or if there's a point ~500m away, saying "I'm going to pass these three guys by the time I get there." In other words, give yourself smaller chunks to focus on, while accepting that the focus will not be constant and that you'll get some "breathers."

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It's a bit too late for this year, but a lot of MD guys seem to benefit from doing a set of 200s or 400s or 600s, about once a week in their summer training. Shouldn't be a gut-buster workout--you don't even have to time the repeats--but it gives you a chance to turn the legs over and feel like the fast runner you are.