Computer science - is age discrimination really that bad?

I wouldn't really say it's age discrimination. Two real problems in computer science related jobs today. First off the entry level domestically is nearly non-existent. In any company larger that a few hundred people the vast majority of entry level jobs are going to India, South America, or China. So if you get your degree, unless you get an advanced degree and maybe more than one you're more likely to get a job stacking lumber.

The 2nd problem is the longer you're in the field the fewer jobs there are going to be. If you want to stay put at a lower level you're competing with people that want less pay, and the number of "experienced" level jobs is also shrinking.

It isn't about computer science. It's about corporate America. If you get laid off in your in your 50s or beyond you may have a tough time getting back. That is the risk you accept when you work for corporate America.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/fashion/30genb.html

MICHAEL BLATTMAN, 58, took a prudent path to a successful business career. Armed with an M.B.A., he started with the federal government, working at the General Accounting Office and Federal Reserve, before moving to the Sallie Mae student loan program, where he rose to be director of national sales.

From 2001 to 2008 he was a senior vice president for a private student-loan company and at his high point earned $225,000 a year in salary and bonuses, he says. He also taught business courses at the University of Maryland; lived in a 4,000-square-foot home in upscale Potomac, Md., and drove a Mercedes.

...

None of that matters in this economy. Mr. Blattman has been out of work ever since, 18 months. He moved to New York because he thought prospects would be better than in Florida. (“I couldn’t go back to Maryland, tail between my legs.”)

But after applying for 600 jobs, he’s had just three interviews — two of them over the phone. At the only in-person interview, for a position supervising international admissions at a Westchester County college, he was asked about salary. “I said: ‘Whatever you’re paying, I’ll take it. I understand it’s a different world now, I can adapt.’ ” The job went to someone half his age, he says.

incorrect

yes if you want to stay in the coding levels forever....best luck to you

you can get in, and if you want to stay in, you must move up....MBA is the way to go

Computer science is a good degree though. Everybody I know who studied computer science has job with a pretty good salary out of college and they still were working throughout this recession.

I've worked as an EE, SW E, Semiconductor E in Silicon Valley for 30 years. If I were in school today, I'd pick nano E, materials E, mechanical E now. Those are the hottest field in the U.S.A. and Japan now.

CS and Digital EE is not so hot in the U.S.A. anymore. Sure, recent dramatic innovations by CS/DigitalEE types (virtualizaion and zetta file system) will revolutionize computer systems, operating systems and applications in the next few years. But most of the basic work in software is now being done in India and China. In prior years Middle Asian immigrants provided the bulk of the labor force in Silicon Valley and this will continue.

If you're 20 right now it'll be 30 years before this is an issue. In 1979 the age discrimination (and most other) issues were different than they are today. Presumably in 2039 it'll likely be different in ways that are impossible to predict. Planning your major based on the assumption of a 30 year career in any field is an bad idea (given how frequently most people change careers). And assuming any field will be the same 30 years in the future is also a bad idea.

Learn how to learn. That'll serve you well no matter what the job market does.

Also, I don't think many engineers are even aware of 'age discrimination'. It's never been brought up as an issue to me, especially here in Silicon Valley. It's what you can create and build and demo that counts. Nobody cares about what school you went to, what religion you are, what country you are from, what age you are, if your are GOP or Dem, LGBT or straight, conservative, liberal, Nazi, who cares. People only care if "it works". If "it works" is literally, figuratively, and actually the only thing that matters. Sounds trite, but it's true here. If it works you are "god". If it does not work you are "fired". I've fired Ph.Ds from big name schools because they couldn't (show me a) demo (of) their project (working successfully) to me. I've doubled the stock options and take home salaries of college dropouts and military trained non-degreed engineers because they sucessfully demo'ed to me that "it works". That's the life for engineers in Silicon Valley.

I cleared 375K last year from coding. no joke (and no MBA - those are the real jokers)

E E wrote:

If I were in school today, I'd pick nano E, materials E, mechanical E now. Those are the hottest field in the U.S.A. and Japan now.

You'd pick MECHANICAL E because it's hot? Dude, you need a reality check. From:

"Mechanical engineers are projected to have 4 percent employment growth over the projections decade, slower than the average for all occupations."

Compare it with civil engineers (18% growth forecasted), biomedical engineers (21% growth), and industrial engineers (20% growth).

Keith Stone wrote:

The 2nd problem is the longer you're in the field the fewer jobs there are going to be. If you want to stay put at a lower level you're competing with people that want less pay, and the number of "experienced" level jobs is also shrinking.

I can't even begin to comment on how astonishingly stupid this is. Don't listen to this tool he/she knows absolutely nothing about anything related to computers based on this quote.

Fear is not the best way to start a career. That was one good thing about growing up in the SF Bay Area in the late 60's and 70's. My only fear was conformity.

I have been working at various companies in technology for the past 32 years. If you stay networked in the industry and at the top of your craft, you will find work. In fact you'll be in demand.

But If you choose to hunker down in some company and act like a zoo animal waiting for your daily feedings you'll have trouble later on if you ever lose that job.

Tahiti people say you eat life or life eats you.

E E wrote:

Also, I don't think many engineers are even aware of 'age discrimination'. It's never been brought up as an issue to me, especially here in Silicon Valley.

WTF? A simple google search for "age discrimination" and computer science brings up more than 28,000 links, most of which are highly relevant. Here's one of them, for example:

" According to the most recent numbers available from the Information Technology Association of America (ITAA), a trade organization in Arlington, Va., workers age 55 and older make up only 6.8 percent of the IT workforce, compared to 11.7 percent of the workforce overall."

"Twenty years after graduation, only 19 percent of computer science graduates still work in IT"

Another one:

;jsessionid=5TQD1BLVTV4EHQE1GHPCKH4ATMY32JVN

"only 2% of the managers said they would most likely hire a worker with 10 or more years' experience. Almost half--46%--preferred to hire a worker with four to 10 years' experience, while 26% said they would hire a worker with less than three years' experience, and another 26% wanted an entry-level worker or recent college graduate."

DK fan wrote:

Don't listen to (Keith Stone) he/she knows absolutely nothing about anything related to computers based on this quote.

Actually, over the years I have determined that Keith is one of the very few people on the LetsRun message boards who have consistently shown that they DO have an in-depth knowledge of the IT industry. If you chose to dismiss him based upon one statement, it's your loss.

delete all political threads wrote:

It isn't about computer science. It's about corporate America. If you get laid off in your in your 50s or beyond you may have a tough time getting back.

Some professions experience age discrimination a lot more than others, though. A computer science guy in his 50s will almost always have a lot more trouble finding work than a doctor or lawyer in his 50s. This variance is very great even if you restrict it to engineering professions. Old electrical engineers who're in the computer industry get laid off quite often, while old civil engineers who work for local, state, or federal governments are valued due to their experience. The downside for civil engineers is that they get paid less and are more vulnerable to swings in the economy.

DK fan wrote:

I can't even begin to comment on how astonishingly stupid this is. Don't listen to this tool he/she knows absolutely nothing about anything related to computers based on this quote.

You apparently flunked basic finance and don't understand hierarchy.

Any given project will have some coders, testers, documenters, designers, someone to architect the overall solution, someone to run the project, and of course a boss in the somewhere.

There are more coders and testers than any of the other positions and they are generally paid the least. You simply need fewer experienced people, and you use those with experience to direct the least experienced. Basic finance.

As long as the organization expands there are jobs for people as they gain experience and move up the ladder. The problem is most IT organizations haven't been expanding for some time now. That, combined with the fact organizations don't value expertise as much as they used to means bad news for people that are doing things deemed "commodity" work, like coding, testing, and documenting. Those jobs are being filled mostly by offshore resources. The remaining jobs being less plentiful by nature means the number of jobs shrinks.

In the last few years nearly 1/4 million IT jobs went offshore. The company I work for contributed about 30,000 of those. While most of those were older workers, it's not age discrimination it's wage "discrimination". If you have someone that's ben coding for 10-15 years they're making good money. There is a huge incentive to replace the $100K people with $10K people from offshore.

I do see a big demand for IT people in 10-15 years. If you walk through the offices of most major IT groups you see a largely greying population. Sure Google, etc, have young workforces but those aren't the people running the IT across the country. Those of us that got in during the original IT boom in the late 70's and early 80's are going to be retiring. IF you can get in, survive the 1-2 technology changes bound to happen, then around 2025 you should be in demand.

Keith, I think it might be important to distinguish in this case between CS degree engineers (who are not going to be doing tech doc, probably won't be doing testing, and hopefully will not be doing IT work) and the bevy of jobs that surround it. Producing the code and maintaining the infrastructure are two very different ballgames.

I might agree with you if you said that testing is done mostly offshore - but it's been my experience that my company relies on offshore engineers for very little mission critical coding, and mostly work that needs to be done but is not particularly desirable.

And to be fair I think it's a little silly to say experience isn't valuable. I don't think there exists a company out there who wouldn't want a staff-level engineer that is personable, reliable, and a brilliant programmer and architect. Those second qualities will only come with experience. My company is, in fact, actively seeking to hire such people.

Who knows. Maybe I just work for a really good company.

As an E E, I know many of my contemporaries don't consider scripts as software, yet major, widely used scripted open systems have been developed and are maintained overseas in Germany, France, India, Taiwan, E Eur, etc.

On the software front, much of Linux, Ubuntu, Carrier Grade Linux, and some Virtualization platforms, etc. are done in India.

The bottom line is that Central Asia is now on the forefront of software R&D. East Asia, US, W & E Europe has been there for some time already.

My work here in the semiconductor industry here in Silicon Valley depends to a large degree on two companies, Nikon in Japan, and ASML in the Netherlands.

Addressing the age discrimination issue again. I'm in my 60s and I have never had any problems getting work or starting companies. I have a company now which was started a little over 2 years ago. People don't care how old you are, only what you can build and get working. I keep saying that and living that way. There are many like me, I'll keep at it until my brain slows down ;-)

My advice to the OP is once you graduate, continue to work with the same intensity that you did in school. Build and make things work. If you do that you will never have any problems finding a job and making alot of money

For example, I'm sitting here now at home working an Labor Day on 3 computers. I'm remotely logged into a Sun Sparc Solaris super server running RF thermal simulations for my company. On my OpenSolaris PC, I'm coding a Java EE web page for a charity I volunteer with. Then on my Windows 7 PC, I'm typing this to you on LR ;-)