Malmo's Canova Schedule for Young Runners

I can explain that that plan was in the year 2003. I was the coach of all these athletes, winning medals in youth Championships (all officially born in 1987, Samson Kiplangat, brother of Daniel Komen, in 1986).

In March of 2004, Augustin left the management of Gianni Demadonna, going under James Templeton. At the same time, he went to Brother Colm as coach, and he continues to be with Colm, making a very good job. For your information, I'm a very good friend of Colm (we spend the most part of time in Iten, every winter) and of Augustine, very educated boy which whom we speak about a lot of problem, not only about athletics.

The previous year, Augustin went to Europe for the first time in his life, after WJCh, and I put him in his first 5000m (13'20") in Heusden, if well remember.

He used, in that period, a part of training done by Nicholas Kemboi (preparing his 26'30") and Moses Mosop, working in Davos and St. Moritz, together with Ronald Kipchumba (winner of WJ in 2004, too) and Justus Kiprono (now HM runner).

The period of December (till half of January) was destined to increase the general, aerobic resistance. Nobody of these athletes was really interested in a good shape for winter competition, but in building up themselves.

During the next period, we started circuits uphill with several types of exercises, and some interval for increasing the Aerobic Power.

Sorry if I decided not to put any specific rhytm, so this table is useless. I'm sure that many coaches writing on letsrun could do very much better with their knowledge, how their results can deeply show.

But life, sometimes, is not totally right.

flow wrote:

Not at all - if that is his training schedule and it lacks fundamental cycling then something is seriously lacking malmo - seriously. Do you not see this, it is quite randomly put together.

I also thought you were joking. The schedule is not random at all. It's my understanding that Canova touches on all energy systems during most part of the year and only puts a serious focus on a specific pace or workout during the last 4-8 weeks (depending on the athlete) before the peak race.

What looks random to you? I also notice several different workouts that are actually very similar if you consider the pace or energy system that it is focusing on. The human body thrives on being challenged in different ways or by different stimuli...if you do the same workouts week in and week out you will get stale, I guarantee it! Switch things up and allow your body to make the appropriate adaptations...

I agree with Malmo here...Distance training is not rocket science. Doing workouts working on several different paces and running a consistently high weekly volume will bring great results. Of course you have to use some common sense and have recovery days thrown in when appropriate. Even Canova's schedule has ridiculously easy 45 minute runs thrown in (even back to back easy days on occasion!) Again allow the body to adapt!

appreciate the reply Renato, not many have done better than you and i have discovered new learning from your table and deinfitely do not feel it is useless,

however, i am really interested in why you don't allow a rhythm to establish in your program and therefore your athletes. As i see it (and as many before me including my main influences) the rhythm is quite essential as everything natural lives on a cycle - the day, the month (moon), the year, our breathing, our heart beat, our thoughts, everything.

So i feel and i have experienced through my coaching of hundreds of young athletes, that once a cycle is established in an athlete, all other things become easier.

Apart from this, i really cannot say much else about your program except that it contains everything i consider necessary especially if there is the inclusion or the appearance of technical or mechanical activities for correction or maintenance of the posture and physique and more than likely the technical elements of movement. You say these come in the next cycle. Could you please for my own education could you outline some of them please?

Also would it be possible to outline the first few months of the training year prior to this table

respectfully

peter winter

)

malmo wrote:

malmo wrote:

No. There is something seriously lacking in your understanding of athletic training. Contrived training schedules built on macro, micro or any other manipulations are just a socialistic fog.

Looks like spell-check doesn't have much of a vocabulary. That's supposed to be "sciolistic fog."

my ex-coach, Ukrainian in origin would be getting red in the face at your first spelling malmo :)

as for sciolism - i don't feel i suffer from that (in this case at least) as i have a long term relationship with the short, medium and long term cycling of training, and how they inter-relate. There are many benefits.

Is periodisation denigrated by many others on this site?

Fundamentally trained runners, coaches, and CSCS's would has us believe a linear progression is correct and that there should be set and defined cycles. The actual functionality of the real world is a little different. You have an athlete at square one. You find what he is good at. What he is bad at. You work on his general conditioning as well as his strengths and weaknesses. The training then adapts itself based on the results of workouts and races. This becomes a more "wave-like" progression, not the linear "base-strength-speed" crap that most of us have been preached on. Canova's methods have been outlined in detail elsewhere on this board. A 6 week snapshop doesn't amount to a whole lot.

There is periodization in Canova's training. You just have to actually take a look at the whole thing, not a 6 week snapshot. There are different types of periodization aside from the linear crap we all know. Periodization is great, but means jack crap if we don't apply what happens in the real world. Just because the schedule says one thing doesn't mean you should do it or are ready for it.

1. Build up and maintain general conditioning (long runs, general running, progression runs, tempos, fartlek, etc)

2. Build up and maintain speed of movement and strength (sprints, hills, gym work).

3. #1 and #2 should ALWAYS be a part of EVERY week of your program somewhere.

4. Move toward specific training both in energy system and actual paces, surfaces, conditions, etc.

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-244--9215-4-1X2X3X5-5,00.html

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=308092

Why run for 12 weeks and do nothing but jog? How does that help you run 5:00 per mile pace? Don't you think your body will learn to run easy and decondition itself, unlearn, how to run at 5:00 pace? If you want to run at 5:00 pace then you should always have something, even something very small, at that pace each week if nothing more than for neuromuscular memory. Easy running for 12 weeks is nothing more than deconditioning of intensity. That my friends is the problem with the basic fundamental periodization most of us have learned.

Alan

sorry to confuse malmo and canova. i thought this post was geared more to american high school runners. many high school coaches around my area use summer of malmo now, because it works and its super easy to follow and allows kids with differing levels of fitness to run together. kids will also race better earlier in the year. daniels has kids doing a bunch of easy jogging with strides early in the year, then the vo2 max stuff during the earlier competitions. kids will not run very well during this phase as your more advanced runners will be running nearly 10k at close to 3k race pace (4 to 5 minute workbouts).

i will say in defence to daniels, that german fernandez's coach used drf verbatim, and he broke the national 2 mile record, so it does work.

Runningart2004 wrote:

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-244--9215-4-1X2X3X5-5,00.htmlhttp://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=308092

Also

i appreciate your post Alan and it contains many truths but i must critique it's misleading notions.

Firstly though i will agree with you that a wave like pattern is what really occurs if you look at it over time but also there is a linear progression to this wave like pattern. If the training is quite correct then the wave travels upwards even though, due to being a wave, at times this actual line of the wave doesn't. It may travel downwards but mostly it just flattens out before the next rise. Plot the average of the wave and you get a line that is far closer to being truly linear.

I also agree with you that each athlete begins an annual (or bi-annual) training cycle not in perfect balance - there are strengths and there are weaknesses. The strengths are the things to maintain and the weaknesses the things to develop. In the decathlon this is more obvious than most other events as there are 10 clearly identifiable events and simply using the points table it becomes obvious which are stronger and which are weaker in any given athlete. Take 5 young budding decathletes and you have 5 completely different patterns of strengths and weakenesses.

If we look at a level below that of 'whole' events we can see the myriad of base factors that can be identified. For simplicity we can use the 5 bio-motor qualities. If speed is a weakness and endurance is a strength then speed development can be emphasised over endurance development all the way from the first phase of training - the GPP (general preparation phase) or the base phase. Speed development is far different from speed maximisation though and to gain speed the mechanical and or flexibility and or strength factors can be developed. Later in the training 'year' speed maximisation comes into play and this is where we actually try to do things 'fast'. Fastness has nothing to do with speed development really, the two are a good 6-9 months apart in an annual training plan. This is an example of addressing specific strengths and weakenesses WITHIN the larger necessity to follow cycles or rhythms - they are not mutually exclusive factors.

Next i also agree with the fact Renato has periodisation occurring, i don't know why you are arguing against linear periodisation (whether wave-like or not) when you also state he does this himself. Linear development occurs in the creation of anything from building a house to creating a dish in a meal. It is not purely linear in either case - in a house people stop for the night for starters yet a house has stages - prepare the ground, then build the foundation, then the first ground level and maybe then the fist story, then outfit the house with its systems of electrical, plumbing etc, then walls, then fitting and paint etc and so on to completion.

My argument is not about the lack of a broader, long-term meso-cycling and it is not about the lack of the short-term weekly in this case, micro-cycling. It is more about the lack of a pattern that is repeatable through the micro-cycling whilst also disagreeing with the apparent lack of the medium-term macro-cycling. These are two separate things - the lack of repeatable rhythm in the micros and the non-existence of the macros.

We have cycles or rhythm in training plans is because they work better than without them. Cycles define our world as i mentioned in the post to Renato himself above. Renato himself agrees there are no specific rhythm's in his program. If this was a program for a specific individual instead of a group of individuals you could argue that the addressing of individual strengths and weaknesses has caused such cycles to appear lost, but since it is a group and therefore not so specifically tailored, the absence of such rhythms is something that caught my eye and caused me to question - and fairly so i must add.

cheers

Peter, a few months ago you were accusing Renato of doping his athletes with EPO, now you tell him he doesn't know how to cycle the training.

You troll all over this messageboard with 100 different names and lecture people on things you clearly don't understand. You said that Renato knows nothing about 800m running. Well it was his main event when he was competing.

Peter, I don't use any micro or macro or meso cycle with middle distance runners.

In the history of methodology, periodization (or better, CLASSIC periodization) was something coming from scientists specialists of the strength and of the nervous system. The first studies were done by Zachorskiy, followed by Verchosanskiy, all from Soviet Union. The first top application ofd these methodology was with throwers. The best coach applying this system was Bondarchuk, former WRH of hammer, that became the coach of Yuriy Syedikh (still WRH), Juri Tamm, Sergeiy Litvinov and Igor Nikulin. They used to come for 2 months of training in Italy, Tirrenia, and I've the opportunity to have a lot of talk with them.

Following this system, coaches for middle and long distances in Soviet Union were able to complicate all the idea of training, losing completely the road of practic application of the principles.

In 1990, I was responsible of Italian Team, we went to European Championships in Split, winning the following medal : silver in 800 (Viali), silver in 1500 (Di Napoli), gold in 5000 and 10000 (Antibo), bronze in 10000 (Mei), gold in steeple (Panetta), bronze in steeple (Lambruschini) plus the 4th place of Carosi, gold in Marathon (Bordin) and silver (Poli) plus 4th place of Bettiol, bronze in 3000m W (Brunet), 4th in Marathon W (Scaunich), National Record in 10000m W (Dandolo, 5th).

During a session on the road with the athletes of long distance, while following with a car, I saw something strange in another car following me. There was a man, out of the window, with a videocamera, recording..... 25 km of long run at 3'40" - 3'30", even pace !

The next day I saw again this man, hidden behind a tree, recording everything about our warm-up. So, I went to him, asking who was and what he was doing. He, with a very bad English, explained me he was a Soviet coach, wanted to learn from the best European Country. I told him that, because we learnt many things from Vladimir Kuts, Pyotr Bolotnikov, and, in 1978, Antipov and Fyedotkin, probably it was better if they could continue their old experiences, instead moving for a new "Periodization" with macro-meso-micro, completely wrong for our type of events.

The situation of training is very simple :

a) You have to build up your aerobic base, and this process can last about 10 years, growing at the same time both in extension and in intensity

b) You have to build up your body, and this process can last again 10 years, using correct weight in order to increase the strength you can specifically use in your event

c) You have to improve in your ability (coordination), in order to reduce the cost of running at the same speed

d) You have to build your mind, thru the increment of volume and intensity, making easy what, before, was difficult.

In this situation, the most important points are :

1) NEVER you have to lose what you were able to conquire. This means that, if you are a 1500m runner able to run at the end of your winter season, 1 hr at 3'30" (17 km), you CANNOT reach your best results if, in July, you are able running 10 x 300 in 42" with 1:00 recovery, but in 1 hr you are only more able to run 15 km. TRAINING IS TO ADD, NOT TO REPLACE.

2) NEVER you have to stay too long time without competing, for maintaining the nervous level and the motivation at a high percentage (never under 85%). Everybody knows that it's very difficult to plan long periods of training without competitions, and in our events we, fortunately, can run different distances, according with the technical program we are using at the time. This situation is not possible in technical events (this is the main difference between throwers or jumpers and middle distance runners) where who is a javelin thrower can compete only in that event, but, during the periodization,also throwers used our same system, for example a period throwing with more light implements (Shot 6 kg, or Discus 1.75, or Javelin 600 gr) when want to improve speed, and another period with more heavy implements when want to work for strength.

3) not less important, referred particularly to professional runners, don't forget that their profession is to run, they can earn money only thru the competitions, so they can use competitions during the most part of the season, also when are not in top shape, as training. In which other events is possible to be paid for your training ? Life is something real, people has to eat, and with micr0-meso-macro without competitions you don't eat, if you are Kenyan, Ethiopian or, also American and or Australian.

Don't forget that Russian athletes were Statal professionals, they had a salary and were paid for training before competitions. And, not only, at that time, in URSS it was not possible to have a private activity.

And also don't forget that the "pariodization" and the "methodology" of Countries using doping as basic plan must be very much different from what you can do without using drugs, apart the motivation.

For top results, we need top quality, and, for training and growing in top quality, we cannot "squeeze" too much the training (for example, intervals every 2 days), because the body becomes tired, not more able to have a correct supercompensation, and no more able to produce quality. So, we need to have MORE MODULATION between speed and endurance, quality and extension, in order to create the base for exhalting the personal quality.

An example of this, can be the results of my athletes during WCh 2005 in Helsinki :

3000 st : Shaheen winner (95% of shape)

3000 st W : Dorcus Inzikuru winner (100% ofShape)

10000m : Moses Mosop bronze (with PB)

3000 st W : Jeruto Kiptum bronze (with PB)

Marathon man : Alex Malinga (UGA) 6th (PB, he had the time between entrants n. 82)

5000m W : Zakia Mrisho (TAN) 4th (PB), moving from 15'03" to 14'44"

The problem, for professional athletes, is not to be strong, but to be in shape WHEN THE TOP CHAMPIONSHIPS ARE. For doing this, you must forget every classic theory about periodization

thanks again Renato, apologies for the long post but i felt a need to respond to each main point in turn

can you tell me how you allow for the rhythms then, first the rhythmyou mention below of recovery, which takes 48 hours, up to 72 in certain cases, but 48 in a well-trained individual already accustomed to the exercise form being undertaken?

If this 48 hours is required and we know it is, then Mon am wed am and fri am become one example of repeating similar types of exercise with 72 hours allowed for at the end of a week. If 48 hours is repeatedly used then the week becomes inefficient and an even number of days (10 or 14 being the ones i've seem most often) is required to continue optimising training around this irrefutable fact of recovery.

How do you allow for this?

i envy you with such experiences, all i have is the intense indoctrination of my own former-Ukrainian coaches personal application of the knowledge he acquired from the system you have been exposed to above. He was fortunate enough to have been lectured by the one who came before Bompa (do you know his name), the one who actually put forward the first understandings of periodisation.

i appreaciate this occurred and probably the main reason why my own coach Efim Shuravetsky, decided to investigate and then integrate the understandings discovered by Lydiard into his own system of training.I did not know this until a few years ago when i said to him 'Efim i want to synergise Soviet Periodisation with Lydiard Periodisation'. The reply was 'Peter, you do not have to worry for i have already done this for you.' I looked into this and quickly realised what he said was true. The simplest explanation of this shows that my own training involved running conintuously for 20minutes initially 3 times a week on alternate days prior to weight training/gymnastic training/drill training sessions. Any pace will do, naturally these paces increased and every third week a timetrial over the same distance - 4kms was done (at the end of each macro). Over time these any paced runs became 30 and then 40 minutes.

this is very humourous :) but still i wonder why it is not appropriate for MD and LD. Lydiard's own periodisation method involves an almost identical overall structure to Soviet Periodisation if the complete training cycle is of the half-year variety.

this 10 year approach seems replicated in a lot of different training regimens in the world. The martial arts talk about 10 years as being needed before one moves from beginner to advanced, from the student to the one who can begin to become a master. My own experience has shown this 10 years was required for me to begin to understand the 'whole' or completeness of what i was doing, not in the masterful sense as that seems to be taking this next 10 years, but in the ability to become understand the completeness. Lydiard himself says it takes 5 years to become a champion and another 5 to become an Olympic Champion.

Yes add but from year to year and not continuously i would say. So if it is to add from year to year then it can be accepted that certain elements can be diminished within that year. Maybe not 2 kms over 1 hour but certainly things cannot remain the same when a certain peaking of qualities must occur in order to move to racing ability from development training. There is only a given amount of time/energy available at any given time and during a peaking period this energy is redirected towards the peaking and away from developing. If we are talking about a tree then it loses some capacity to grow it's trunk and limbs when it begins to flower anf fruit. The trunk and limbs do not shrink of course but they don't continue to grow.I know you are not sating this and neither am i. For me maintenance is achieved by doing something once a week, development from twice and optimal development from 3 times (occasional 4).

Again i agree with the first point as would Lydiard, hence his usage of timetrails weekly and even bi-weekly - with the 5000m and 10000m trials and XC races. Also Efim would agree as we did timetrials for distance every 3 weeks as i mentioned above.

Yet i disagree with the inability to do with with technical eventers. Within the macro-cycle i trained under it basically involved progressively overloading the volume for two weeks until we were on the edge of too much. Then the third week came and this involved a great reduction in volume combined with a great increase in intensity. As part of this intensity we underwent many trials within the strength power and even speed elements of training. These did change throughout the training year but examples from GPP were timed rope climb of 6 meters, 10 timed chinups for speed, 10 timed legups on the horizontal bar for speed, standing vertical jumpms for height and standing long and triple jumps from both legs, 4 hops and a jump for distance from both legs, 5 squats with bodyweight on the shoulders timed, 5 jerks with 75% bodyweight timed ... and so on. Definitely not the full events because they at the time were in the process of technical breakdown before rebuilding but instead test against fundamentals of movement, the same fundamentals which made up each whole event. This is something i have not seen replicated elsewhere in my own country although it may of elsewhere in the world, but certainly not in the same form.

I hear you on this and i have to disagree with it as a reason behind not following the longer slower buildup that i underwent. Fundamentally i believe the longer the buildup (if doen correctly) the higher the potnential peak. I think Viren showed this well and i believe in this sense* he was Lydaird's greatest student. He had enough belief and patience to prepare for an extended period of time to ensure the highest possible peak when it matters most in this sport of ours - the Olympic games.

* In the technical sense i see Vasala as being the greatest student, in the complete combined sense i see Snell as.

Also and this will vary from country to country i was able to pursue my training in Australia to the maximum and follow a yearly plan under Efim yet still support myself. I was able to do this because in Australia i was able to study Phsyical Education and receive a government study subisdy to do so. This subsidy was about 50% of what i needed to live on, the other half from coaching athleteics in schools at a good hourly rate so i only needed to work 4-5 hours a week to survive. I was also lucky to train under Efim who was an Australian Institute of Sport coach and, whilst i was not a scholarship holder myself, I did gain from all of the equipment and training facilities Efim could provide plus the fact his salary was paid to coach people like me. Sure this is an individual situation but in many other countries athletes are paid by the police or army to train

yes and fortunately Efim decided to leave the Ukraine in 1970 prior to but also in response to the oncoming implementation of systemised drug use. He said to me once that our training program was modified to take into account the different culture of Australia and fortunately did not have to be modified from a drug based program because he left prior to it's implementation. He also said other main reason he left the Ukraine was because he didn't want his young children growing up under Communism. He had various books on Western philosophy hidden in his house which showed him a 'better way' was out there. These books at that time, if found, would have seen him end up in Siberia somewhere. Such a tough situation to be in. Sorry i digress but it is interesting.

i agree with this 2 days/48 hours as above and also this increased modulatiod and i have found this modulation within Lydiard's own method. It is just that when he is training the aerobic capacity in his first phase of training he only modulates within this range (apart from some faster but short sprinting efforts and the 5k 10k timetrials)

depending on what is important to the athlete i agree with you.If winning 2 Olympic gold medals 4 years apart is important, and one has the ability of patience for this, then surely double Olympic Gold means a lot of money if worked correctly for those 4 years and then even more money following the seonc double gold. A risk worth taking if the beliefe in the system is not in doubt surely!

what most people on letsrun don't seem to understand is this point that canova makes and puts into practice:

"we need to have MORE MODULATION between speed and endurance, quality and extension, in order to create the base for exalting the personal quality."

for instance, a lot of the talented college runners here do easy tempos and don't rest properly when they should be doing tempos much closer to race pace and then taking really easy recovery if necessary.

Peter, fundamentally we agree, but we have some difference, due, probably, to the different situations we live.

For example,of course Lydiard spoke about big modulation, but this was for very long period. Instead, when now I speak about modulation, I go to modulate more than in the past every microcycle (my microcycles are the periods, of different duration, between one competition, also if not important, and the next, so can be long between 3 weeks and 5 weeks, depending on the period of the season; but Idon't like to speak about microcycles, because I try to use different workouts, NEVER repeating something I did before. This for a very simple reason : I don't want that the athletes can look ONLY to their workouts with the possibility to control times and distance, comparing the results with something done, mat be, one year before, in the same type of training. For me, for instance, if I decide that during a period of 3 weeks I have 2 sessions for the improvement of Aerobic Power, going for 4 x 3000 in 8'45" with 3' recovery, or for 1x4000 in 11'40" + 2x2000 in 5'40" + 4 x 1000 in 2'45", have the same effect, and I don't want to repeat).

And, speaking about MEDIUM TERM (mesocycle), I go again for more modulation, alternating periods very hard with periods easier.

For example, I use (with top runners) SPECIAL BLOCKS, consisting in very hard training both morning and afternoon (for example, 10 km in 33' + 15 km at 3'04" pace in 46' in the morning, and 10 km in 33' + 10 x 1000m in 2'52" rec. 200m in 1' in the afternoon, for a marathon runner for 2:07-2:08, or 5 km in 17' + 2000 (5'30") + 1600 (4'20") + 1200 (3'10") + 800 (2'02") rec. 3' in the morning, and 5 km in 17' + 3 x 400m alternating 50m fast and 50 "flotting", with a final time of 49", with 6'/8' recovery, for a top specialist of 800m, in the afternoon).

During the week with a SPECIAL BLOCK, the global volume of mileage decreases, 2 days before this training and 2 days later there is regeneration only, BECAUSE THE ATHLETE MUST BE FRESH FOR MAKING IT AT HIS BEST LEVEL, and MUST RECOVEY VERY WELL FOR USING THE SUPERCOMPENSATION.

Also, planning a season, I prefer 3 competitions in 1 week followed by 3-4 weeks of tough but modulated training, than competition once a week for 3 following weeks.

Instead, speaking about the periodisation you used, compared with what throwers did, you did very intensive training, BUT WITHOUT SPECIFIC TECHNIQUE AT TOP LEVEL.

The revolution of Bondarchuk was exactly to put, also in Winter, ONE COMPETITION EVERY MONTH, at the end of a period of training, also when the goal was, for example, to work for increasing strength. His idea was that TECHNIQUE DEPENDS NOT ONLY ON THE ABILITY, BUT ON THE LEVEL OF POWER YOU HAVE. So, if for example you have a PB of 250 kg in squat, you can have a determined angle in your knee when you prepare your throw or your jump, but if you become able to move to 300 kg. of PB, you can start your action from lower position, so you MUST modify your technique depending on your strength. That's the reason because you CANNOT go for long periods working on the improvement of qualities only (like in the past Lydiard), but you need to combine in very short microcycles the variation of your qualities with the variations of technique. When this doesn't happen (and, for example, how many times a sprinter is able to improve his bests in 10 jumps, 100m run in frequency, 100m run with long strides, and all the exercises you did, and after goes to run SLOWER than before, because his technique didn't follow his improvement in qualities ?), the performance doesn't grow.

You have a typical approach as Decathletes. For your information, between 1976 and 1985 I was, in Italy, the National Coach for Multiple Events, so I have a formation coming from the multilateral activity.

Decathlon is the only event that doesn't have a final technical goal. The final goal is TO PUT TOGETHER MORE POINTS. What does it mean this ? For a sprinter, the final goal is running faster. For a jumper, to jump higher or longer. But TO MAKE MORE POINTS, depend on the scoring table of the moment.

Why, in the period between 1970 and 1980, we had decathlonists of 100 kg (an example, the URSS Litvinyenko) able running 1500m in 4'05", and now almost nobody is able running under 4'30" ? Because at that time the difference between 4'50" and 4'15" was 500 points or more, now the difference is very little. So, if they change the tables, we change our training.

Nothing like this happens in other events.

Last thing, when you apeak about Viren or Vasala, two points :

1) Finnish athletes of endurance, in all the sports, were the first using the SELF TRANSFUSION, at that time legal. All the other Countries looked at this practice like at TOP SCIENTIFIC SYSTEM, and after some time tried to follow the system, like Italy in the period 1980-1985. Using this system, you needed long periods without any competitions, because you needed to give 500 ml of blood, twice per season, within a period of about 2-3 months, before to have back all your blood in your body, 10 days about before the top competition.

Due to this situation, the athletes could not have a good shape for long periods, and needed a very long recovery after every season.

2) Don't forget that, at that time, the situation of Athletics was not professional like today, after the point of view of organisation. So, the athletes didn't have the opportunity for competing several times, for objective lack of big meetings. And, also, Finnish Federation was the first Federation in the World to give specific contributions to its athletes, with very good money for going to train where they wanted (normally in Algarve during Winter)

So, I repeat : the fact that many records continue to be beated, also by athletes competing many times during a season, means that, if you are able to use a very big modulation, in order not to lose what you have, you can have better results than in the past.

And, finally, you cannot not consider the mental attitude of everybody. Somebody prefers long and tranquil periods of training, for not using too many nervous energies, being able to remain concentrated in training for long time also without competing. Other need the stimula of competition in order not to lose motivation in training becoming lazy.

Every person is a combination of different qualities and different feelings, and lives in different habitats and ambience. Never a good coach has to forget this.

Is the coach that has to adapt his knowledge to the athletes, not the athletes that have to adapt themselves to the coach.

jonesy, are you steve jones in colorado?

Mr. Canova

I was wondering how you would apply your philosophy to the U.S. Collegiate System; Cross Country August through November, Indoor December through March, and Outdoor March through June?

Thanks so much for your insightful posts.

Optional

who is jonesy wrote:

jonesy, are you steve jones in colorado?

No. He's an impostor.

Renato, I also feel that we fundamentally agree, however, of course as human beings go, not completely. Whilst the different situations we are in explains much of it i feel not entirely. Yet i must say that once again your post stimulates my thinking more than most other information i come across. Thankyou for that.

Also thanks for explaining your own system more thoroughly as words and labels often lead to miscommunication. I would like to know the preceding training plan to the one this thread is based on. Could you provide your approach and thinking of the few months of training leading up to it please?

And i would like to put to you how i see things differently and see your responses if you have time. Fortunately we are in a period of non-competition in athletics so i'm hoping you do have the time.

i couldn't agree more with the need to vary sessions so as to avoid this tendency towards competitiveness in training, even with oneself and their own training history. Yet i feel this is something that can also be approached through athlete education as i'm sure you find the same.The reason i like to modulate is to avoid this psychological problem of competition in training and also to avoid the natural, physical problem of diminishing adaptions (phsyiological and neuromuscular - ie fitness and technical).

Yet i have found that i like to create a situation where the athlete can do the same or similar type of activity over some time (maximimum 6 weeks i've found) so they can come close to maximising that activity, to where the natural plateau occurs. This 6 weeks is never 6 weeks continuously as on the 3 weekly macro i follow each third week contains a large modulation from the activity eg a single session of 2x3x300m/3&6minutes is modulated with 2x300m/full rec in weeks 3 and 6.

I've found that steady development needs to occur before modulation is required. Once 2x3x300m has been developed to a plateau a modulation often involves the usage of a pyramid either a normal one in development phases and an inverse one in initial competition phases. Following this form of modulation i find another period of steady can be used to further gain and once that gain has plateau'd (3 weeks of half the original time) a ladder can be used. The ladder rises (slow to fast or short to long) during development and the ladders heads downwards in later competition phase ie 500,400,300,200,100 off 5,4,3,2 minutes followed by 8,6,4,2 and then 10,8,6,4 for example as one closes in on final competitions.

I must add that i am only interested in the 800m for now (beyond the pure speed and power events) whereas you are interested in the whole spectrum of distance running, maybe focused on the longer parts.

whereas i seem to prefer following the rhythm of my version of the macro-cycle of 3 weeks where the first two are the hard volume based period and the third the easier intensity period.

and i find there is this supercompensation effect every 3 weeks During and often late into the 3 week of my macrocycle. This gives the chance for a supercompensation effect 16 or 17 times in any given year. This can be modified easily to allow for a full supercompensation or a partial one by adding a little more volume into the beginning of the 3rd or i guess i could call the supercompensation week. This is something i am careful about because the end goal of becoming fresh by the weekend of the third week really should not be compromised. If it is then the following macro must be modified or the adding idea you put forward cannot occur, instead we have to resort to simply coping in order not to start travelling backwards into subtraction.

i prefer to have a focussed competition at the end of every third week with practise style competitions at the end of the first week. It is very difficult to compete well at the end of the second week although throwing events cna be done without too greater diminishment of result. For the 800m i find it necessary to eliminate competition in the second week although a 1500m can be used in the first week. Any quality 800m is normally focussed on at the end of the third week when supercompensation is occurring to its maximum.

If during a season which is long as is the Australian season, i do like your approach of a number of quick competititons followed by a macro or two of further development and containing no competitions. This occurs by necessity in Australia because of a split season being in the Southern Hemishphere with Summer creating a holiday period surrounding Christmas and the new year. The period prior to this 3-4 week break fits nicely into pre-competition phase and the period after into competition phase. Any problems of technique of fitness identified in precompetition can be addressed with a macro block or two during the break. This is especially beneficial if the training period is of a full year instead of a half year.

this problem you mention seems to be greatly alleviated by the usage of drills and fundamental exercises during the first 2 weeks and only putting together full technique towards tehe end of the third week. OF course in GPP and even SPP full technique is not looked at, especially when the athlete has a young training age or short training history, a time when much fundamental change needs to be created and moving to full technique limits this by re-stimulating the old movement patterns, which we wish to forget completely. For a more advanced athlete with a longer training history more regular return to full technique is advisable for sure as Bondarchuk uses.

I must mention that for a period of time i trained myself, from the ages of 23-26. I guess this was partly due to my need at that age to gain independence from my coach. As i went through this phase i educated myself in other other systems. One i looked at initially was that of Charlie Francis who uses a 4 weekly block similar to Bondarchuk's monthly one. I found with 2-3 months i could not complete each 4 weekly macro block even with a reduced 4th week. Even though my basic strength increased more quickly than ever before for example in the back squat and bench press, my power clean did not, nor did any of these other tests that i kept doing. So i abandoned the 4 weeks for the 3 week macro. I concluded that drugs were necessary to gain full benefit from the 4 weekly macro Charlie Francis used.

yes i agree the fundamental goal is to put together more points, you know the decathlon well and this is a serious comment. Yet i can't agree that the training method i underwent is exclusive for the decathlon, i also know it is (under modification) one that can be used for other technical events and even for the sprint events.I know this because my coach trained a high jumper Tim Forsythe under this method to 2.36m, a triple jumper Andrew Murphy to 17.18m at 19 years of age, he advised the high jumper Yelena Yelesina gold medallist in 2000 who followed this system albeit somewhat modified as he was not her actual coach, merely adviser. There were others but most notably a triple jumper who once reaching 16m changed to the 400m and within 3 months had recorded a time of 46.3 and two years later a sub 45 relay split in 2000 Olympic Games for the Australian team.

thankyou for this information as it is beyond my scope of experience and does help in my analysis of the effects Lyiard and his method had on the Finnish situation. Whilst Viren seemed to gain some benefit from the self transfusion i feel that he is of the variety that would fit into your description of lesser-elastic type of person. His running style and the way he holds his posture indicate this to me but also, to follow up on your important point relating to individual preferences of training based on personality style, also seems to be less elastic in thinking. He seems to be of the type that prefers a steadier more structured approach to training and preparation and this seems to be one other reason why he had the patience to work towards his goals over a longer time period than most. perhaps this patience and long term endeavour in an athelete of today will see someone, somewhere put in a larger base workload of mnay years, eschewing the need for continuous competition and monetary stimulation, and so be one to create a new WR in the 800m. Coe and later Kipketer seem to have this in part, Coe due to his fathers own long term vision and Kipketer due to taking on the structure of of the Western scientific mind to add to his own natural free Kenyan spirit.

Quote:

Is the coach that has to adapt his knowledge to the athletes, not the athletes that have to adapt themselves to the coach.

Yes i agree and i feel i am constantly adapting yet i also feel the athlete must adapt themselves to take on the system of training the coach determines to be the best.

I hope to continue some dialogue as i am learning much from you. I would appreciate your thoughts on my thoughts as outlined above

cheers

Peter

Mr. Canova

I'm a big fan of you and would love to see some training weeks especially from your 10.000m Runners...

Thanks so much

greets

Chris

Renato,

Can you confirm how long you actually coached Choge for? I once visited ITEN a long time ago and Choge was coached by Bro Colm. This was long before he competed at the world youths (infact the hotel that is now built looking over the valley was only a drawing)and Choge was present in Brother Colms junior camp. He had only begun form 1 in High School. Was you coaching before all this (post 2000)?? And why did he eventually return to Bro Colm for coaching? Since that visit to ITEN I have always remained a fan of Choge. I assumed he was snatched by the agent at some point from Bro Colm's camp and after the 10 months away he returned for whatever reason.