FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30

Keeping this thread alive....

Sleepy - I too am in base mode now, have been at 70-75 mpw

for the past few months. Will continue for a couple months until I start my 18 week marathon program (Daniels' modified elite). I will probably set my peak mileage to be 75 or 80.

My base program is simple: lots of easy easy miles with lots of strides. Plus 1 long run of 15-17m and 1 10k tempo run (my favorite). No track work in base phase. Comments?

I run every day except approx 1 off day in 2 weeks.

I do a double once a week.

(yes i know that if i did an extra 5m morning run as a double i could get my mileage up to 100. perhaps i will do that in a year or two. right now i am just trying to get my body used to 75).

Since I read this thread first time around, it’s popped up in my mind a coupla times riding the bike to work.

For the OP (sleepyRunner), here’s a quick summary of how I’d approach it:

First, I’d check out the performance points of my 5k PR and my new sub-1:10 HM PR and see what they are. I might learn a coupla things and they could serve to guide my marathon build-up. You want to get as much info as you can about the kind of runner you are...

Case 1:

If the points for the 5km are significantly better than for the HM, then I’d be a little concerned, because that could suggest that the downward points trend will continue towards the marathon.

I might see something like this: - 5km 1,000 pts … HM 950 pts …(predicted) M 900 pts

This would suggest to me that my long distance endurance is not as highly trained as my 5km performance, so in the weeks leading up to the marathon, I’d be very careful to improve endurance and fat-burning training every week. Otherwise I might myself cruising for 20 miles in the race and then bonking outta muscle glycogen. You need to work a lot on fuel-economy.

So, I’d be looking at the paces between M-12 (Mpace minus 12 secs per mile) and (more importantly in this situation) M+24 (Mpace + 24 secs per mile). I would do as much of the latter pace in a week that I could (within reason), building up to 10-milers and even 2 x 10km at this pace (it ain’t tough) as a single workout.

Example: Mpace = 6:00m/m, M-12 = 5:48m/m, and M+24 = 6:24m/m

Being me, I would correlate all this with HR so I could be sure my “engine” isn’t working at an effort I just know I cannot maintain for a marathon (ie: going in I’d be confident race pace is going to be no higher than 87-89% HRmax – see Cabral & Hadd thread for more details).

To gain marathon endurance, this (more-FT kind of runner) must expect to lose / give up some speed at 5km. In other words, his 5km performance should worsen as his marathon date approaches. Probably his 10-km will also worsen... What you lose on the swings, you gain on the roundabout.

Case 2:

If the points for the HM are better than for the 5km (and this is possible if you are more-ST – see Cabral & Hadd thread for definition), then I would ensure that I kept up the ability to run a near-PR 5km right up until nigh Marathon day.

Once again, I’d work all the paces from M-12 to M+24, but I would also add in some faster 5k-paced work on a semi-regular basis; you give up that 5km ability at your peril if you are an ST-type of runner.

Be careful of Mpace. It can be overrated. Often just a little bit slower than Mpace is better (eg: M+10 to M+24 above). Too, you want to make sure you are training at “effort” and not “pace”.

A marathon in a cool northern climate in April is not the same as a marathon in Honolulu in August. The effort is pretty much the same, but the pace is definitely not. We found this here one time; we trained for a marathon in the Mediterranean heat at HRmarathon and got one running pace, but then raced in a far northern way cooler climate and raced 12 secs/mile faster at the same HR (due simply to change of ambient temp).

The worst thing we could’ve done in training was to train at "M_pace". This would’ve been too hard due to the hot training environment and we would've rapidly overtrained.

Fortunately we trained at "M_effort" and took "Mpace/M_Effort" to be to 88-90% HRmax and were rewarded with a very successful marathon and ignored what the pace was. So, I would suggest monitoring much of your training by HR (especially in warm climate) and not focussing too much on target race pace.

The final pre-Marathon mode (aka Phase IIB) might only last 6-8 weeks (the longer period for the FT-runner who needs to gain a ton of endurance, the shorter period might be enough for the ST-runner who finds his performances improve as the distance lengthens, so it is not as difficult for him/her to switch to M-mode).

Until that time, work on improving your 10k-HM performances (and even 3-5km if you are a strong-ST type).

Good luck.

I am a bit slower than most on here but used the DRF for a 2:42 in London in 2006. I thought it was largely very good. I agree with the others on here who have said that you should extend the long runs from what Daniels suggests - this I think was the main difference between my 2:42 and a 2:50 two years before. I also agree with whoever it was who said that you should be careful about paces - cruise intervals can easily become interval training pace if you're not careful, with resultant loss of speed in later intervals in the session.

One point I wanted to raise is re fuelling on long runs. I don't know if this has been picked up already as I have not read every post - apologies if I'm going over old ground.

Before my 2:42 I did my long slow runs on just water - no gels or sports drink. Those long runs with quality elements in (Daniels' TLT runs and MP runs) I did with sports drink. I got this idea from the mcmillanrunning site. I think this made a real difference (for my 2:50 I did not do this). On the day my energy levels stayed high throughout and I maintained good pace.

Just wanted to throw this idea in for the thoughts of others who know a lot more about these things.

That's breaking the 10% rule, you'll get injured!!!!!!!

sleepyRUNNER wrote:

sleepyRUNNER wrote:

- i've been at about 60 mi/week for the last month or so.

I only mentioned this before in the spirit that I feel very rested and very ready to get back into decent mileage. I feel lazy doing 60 mi/week.

My build up will be 70,80,90,100,100,100 and evaluate what the next two weeks will be like before jumping into Daniel's workouts.

note - This is usually how i build my mileage - I ramp up quick and maintain - I'm very low-risk with injuries and each consecutive week of the peak mileage feels easier.

mar wrote:

Nothing but long runs can get your legs ready for the pounding.

BS

Idiot RW/RT Jogger Crossover wrote:

That's breaking the 10% rule, you'll get injured!!!!!!!

sleepyRUNNER wrote:

- i've been at about 60 mi/week for the last month or so.

sleepyRUNNER wrote:

I only mentioned this before in the spirit that I feel very rested and very ready to get back into decent mileage. I feel lazy doing 60 mi/week.

My build up will be 70,80,90,100,100,100 and evaluate what the next two weeks will be like before jumping into Daniel's workouts.

note - This is usually how i build my mileage - I ramp up quick and maintain - I'm very low-risk with injuries and each consecutive week of the peak mileage feels easier.

I've broken the 10% rule many many times.... many many, w/ no injuries - but it generally is a good rule for most.

Cool - Thanks Hadd!I'm right with you that one of the first things that should be done is to try to get a feel for if Sleepy is more ST or FT. Right now, I think am thinking is somewhere around 50/50. His best time Purdy calculator-wise (and also JD vdot) is his mile of 4:16. But, that is not so uncommon with guys who are not that far out of HS/college, particularly if this is one of the primary events they've been training for over that span. Also, Sleepy himself curiously says that in college he "somehow" became a miler, and after giving his mile PR, he comments that he knows it's not his real strength (though he doesn't state how he knows this). Regardless, I'm willing to go along with him on this and simply disregard his mile time as a temporary outlier (until his other PRs outscore it) because that is what he trained for. Also, he has put in a couple of stints at 80m/week, which is solid (but not that high). There is two ways to look at this... First, if he is more of a distance guy, his PRs are not up to his mile standard because his mileage has been rather modest. On the other hand, though, if he is more ST, it is odd that he hasn't run more because as a ST fella, running longer would be the type of training he'd enjoy most. It would appear that his 5K could be due for a rewrite since he ran it on the roads (which is generally 20sec+ slower) and off of all strength work. According to Purdy, a 4:16.5 would be ~14:50, so he may not be that far off. Finally, his HM time is better than his current 5K PR. So, all in all, from the info Sleepy gave us, he very well could be slightly more ST than FT, but I don't think he is one of those majorly ST guys, because those guys wouldn't put up with running the mile in college (since they would suck at it relative to their 5K). That's why I'm going with Sleepy as a 50/50 type of dude.Since he basically has been right at his best (for now) 5K-HM fitness as recently as this spring, and since the marathon puts a premium on aerobic fitness, I think he should train for his best HM after a short reacquaintance with basework. He may even score a new 5-10K PR along the way, but whether or not this happens, those distances will need to be updated after his marathon. That's why I would go with a program that would correspond with your case 1 that you outlined below for this November marathon. The thread linked below is the Hadd/Cabral discussion... is VERY pertinent to this thread and is just tons of great info.http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2375989&page=0

Let me give some more facts which might clear up some speculation regarding FT/LT in the last post.

My high school coach I could rant about forever - to this day, my best and #1 influence w/ distance running - coached a team to D1 (largest) state meet 18 consecutive years, we had 5 guys under 16:45 my senior year, etc. I went through each summer/year progressing on base mileage - we had the "500 mile club" for summer running - I was doing around 60-70 mi/week by senior year. The guy knew what he was doing without burning anybody out - I could go on and on.

College career involved a coaching change half way through. Coach 1 (frosh/soph year) was a good DIII athlete in his day running 35-45 miles/week at higher intensity - he took that approach and put it on all the athletes he wanted to coach. There's a whole long story that could be told and a ton of history going into the coaching change that he was involved in (before my time), but to sum up - I ran 60-70 miles/week in highschool and about the same in college - but only for base (summer) - the rest became 35-50 along with running intervals probablly too fast (2:52-2:57 1000s when they should be 3:00-3:05, but w/ low mileage nobody's going to get burnt out or injured right?). The only good athletes that were produced under this coach were rouges that didn't do his training, they did their own thing under the previous coach - I'm not kidding - but, I was a young guy looking for somebody to put trust in right? I did put in a pretty great (or what I thought was great) summer of volume between my frosh and soph year (60-70 mi/week all on singles) - so I was sub-26 xc8k that year once in a while and I think that summer can explain my 15:14 indoor 5k later in the year (February?) - I had a base. As far as true distance running is concerned - everything pretty much stayed the same from there on out. Coach 2 (jr/sr year) is the greatest guy in the world, but didn't have a distance background - he was a phenominal 400m hurdler - and the head coach of the track team. Things have changed now for the distance program (for the better), but we don't need to get into that. So, lower mileage/higher intensity continued through jr/sr year where I, for the first time, was starting to produce a good mile/1500 - 4:16 indoor mile. Whenever I'd enter a 5k, I'd feel like crap and not have that sense of "this is fast, but maintainable for 10 laps with a 2.5 lap finishing effort" - I really don't think I had the appropriate base so I'd get discouraged and find refuge in running the mile more -the training and racing was great fun too.

If I could do it all over again - I think being a 60-70 mi/week guy in high school should have warrented building on that and becoming a 80-90 mi/week guy in college (eventually) and had a true base to run well in xc and 10k. I feel as though I was very undertrained (from a distance perspective) So, with all that being said, which is a very very small summary - I really do feel as though I'm a true distance guy, not 100% ST, but probably more like 60/40 or 55/45 ST/FT. What encourages me is that after 1.5 years of no running, it took me about one year to run sub 1:10:00 HM with my own "volume-minded" training (70-80 mi/wk).

Any thoughts???

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This is a great thread. Good advice, hopefully things turned out well for this young runner. I am going through the same thing right now. Looking for anymore insight or direction that i can get.

get good at running marathon pace (or a little faster). then get good at running marathon pace after 15 miles.