D1 3k

the difference between me and you guys is that when I make an argument, I use logic instead of insulting people in an attempt to make their points invalid. Bottom line is the pack was together for too long during that race, and it wasn't an indication of the best man over 3k. It was an indication of who had the best 1k speed. But what were they running? The 3k. Too many championship races end up like that, and it doesn't fit the spirit of what RACING actually is. Is Kyle Alcorn faster than Quigley or Curtis or Bumbi or Beninger over 3k? Maybe, but based on yesterday's performance we can't tell for sure--they didn't race for 3k, they raced for 1k. That's not what championships are about, because lots of times the best man doesn't win.

Just because you don't run a world record or because all the best competition isn't in the race doesn't mean you're not a champion. I give it up to Kyle Alcorn for winning--I just would have liked it if the race were faster and he had one off of a faster pace. To be honest, 8:00 isn't all that slow and maybe I'm failing to consider other factors like the fatigue level of the athletes and all. My complaint is that this race looked a lot like other recent championship races. I love Lagat, but a winning time over 13:30? And how about Athens? The point of a race is to "race", not to run tempo and then pick it up at the end. Would El G really beat Bekele in a 5k? Highly doubtful, but the fact is that he's faster over shorter distances and that's essentially what was raced in Athens. Guys like Rob Novak are running 2:23-2:24 for 1000 and Kyle Alcorn nearly finishes his last 1k of the 3k in that--2:26 would be a winning time in a lot of 1000 races that contain quality athletes, so the bottom line is he shouldn't have had that type of energy left in him and it means the pace was too constrained on the race. Alcorn is a great athlete and I have nothing against him winning (the only reason I wanted Bobby Curtis to win is he's a Philly college local), and I think it's perfectly possible that he would have won off of a faster pace. You get a bunch of guys together between 7:50 and 7:55 and you wanna see guys push each other to 7:4x times (granted, they were tired). 8:00 minutes is a good time, but it shouldn't be a championship time.

who is he? wrote:

you're a dumb @$$, alcorn didn't lead more than 600 meters the whole race. mcneil led the first 1000, perry led the second 1000, and the lead changed 10 times over the last 1000, so when you say no one treed to take the lead from him, you must not have watched. oh and BTW,

actually benninger led almost the whole last 1000m. definitely not 10 lead changes

not cool wrote:

Bottom line is the pack was together for too long during that race, and it wasn't an indication of the best man over 3k. It was an indication of who had the best 1k speed.

So you think if Tyler Mulder (the 800m champ) had been in the race, he would have won? No chance -- to close in 2:26 in an 8:00 race takes the skills of a 3000m runner. If you can run 7:50, but you can't change gears to close in 2:26, then you don't have the tools to win races as a 3000m runner -- so you should probably move up to a longer distance, or train your weaknesses.

I honestly just don't understand how you can babble on about "it wasn't an indication of the best man over 3k." There's a very simple way to determine who the best man over 3k is: line everyone up on a track, fire a gun, and see who finishes 3k first. That's what they did.

If all you're asking is "who has the fastest time over 3k?", then you don't need to have a championship race at all. Just have everyone head to their friendly local invitational with rabbits, run as fast as they can with even splits, and mail in the times. But championship races measure a DIFFERENT skill -- the ability to beat people in a head-to-head race. It can be pretty fun to watch -- that's why billions of people watch the Olympics, and only thousands care about the Brussels GP.

What about last years ncaa's when solinsky went and lomomg just stuck to his shoulder and then blew by him like he wasnt moving! I guess lopez lomong wasnt the best guy that day, solinsky was because he had the guts to go earlier! Dude STFU because you will not win this stupid argument!

not cool wrote:

the difference between me and you guys is that when I make an argument, I use logic instead of insulting people in an attempt to make their points invalid. Bottom line is the pack was together for too long during that race, and it wasn't an indication of the best man over 3k. It was an indication of who had the best 1k speed. But what were they running? The 3k. Too many championship races end up like that, and it doesn't fit the spirit of what RACING actually is. Is Kyle Alcorn faster than Quigley or Curtis or Bumbi or Beninger over 3k? Maybe, but based on yesterday's performance we can't tell for sure--they didn't race for 3k, they raced for 1k. That's not what championships are about, because lots of times the best man doesn't win.

You have made one thing abundantly clear: you have never raced a championship race at this level. Here is the point of a championship race (read it carefully): to see who can reach the finish line first after the gun goes off. And that's it. End of story.

I am pretty sure the guys running were there to win medals, not put on a show for everyone else

what about.... wrote:

What about last years ncaa\'s when solinsky went and lomomg just stuck to his shoulder and then blew by him like he wasnt moving! I guess lopez lomong wasnt the best guy that day, solinsky was because he had the guts to go earlier! Dude STFU because you will not win this stupid argument!

Actually, you just proved my point for me. Solinsky broke up the field and went and Lopez took what he had and beat him. Completely different situation than what we saw this year. Think about Pre and Viren. Pre makes the long drive home, breaks up the field, Viren hangs with him, takes all his shots and still beats him. There\'s no doubt there that Viren was the better man, at least then. This year the winner walks away from the ENTIRE pack in the last part of the race--almost everyone was still within striking distance. If Viren had walked away from the entire pack, you bet people would question whether he was better or Pre was better--all that shows is that he had better finishing speed, not that he was a better racer over 3000 meters. Bottom line is that we\'re not going to agree--you may think championships racing is about winning, but I think it\'s a test of something more, and moderately paced races with fast finishes doesn\'t accomplish that.

Lastly, I enjoy reading the lack of tact produced by Letsrun posters--telling me to STFU is going to have little effect and will only serve to piss me off. Funny how people think that contributes to an argument--I guess when people attempt to degrade others they think it makes their arguments look stronger.

My first post on this famous forum...

"not cool": I agree with you to a degree on the idea that there is something absent from a 3k like the one we saw, but I also believe "racing," just as you mentioned "finishing speed," is an aspect of running we must not put the same value on. I respect the idea that these runners, ultimately trying to put themselves in the history books as NCAA champions as well as gain points for their respective teams, use tactics to change what could be a sub-7:50 race into what it was. If Alcorn's coach told him he needed to win the 3k for the team to pull out the overall win, maybe he did it the way he best thought he could. Basically, we just have different ideas of what we want to see at a championship meet, but I'm not going to attempt to belittle you for that.

Tactless posters (certainly not all of you): How hard is it to keep the posts mature, tactful, logical, etc? These boards are a great thing for runners to discuss running, but threads hardly make it off the first page before one of you ruins it with a "STFU" or "wow omg wtf u no nuthin!!!!"

Ridic, grow up, keep the boards full of worthwhile discussion. "not cool" that isn't directed at you, you stayed reserved instead of lowering yourself, you and I just have different opinions on the matter.

Night all.

not cool wrote:Lastly, telling me to STFU is going to have little effect and will only serve to piss me off. Funny how people think that contributes to an argument--I guess when people attempt to degrade others they think it makes their arguments look stronger.

I think we're hoping that if you hear STFU from enough people, you may start to understand how little you know and question your sublime confidence when making ill-informed comments about high-level racing.

Let me conclude by saying, STFU.

I think the OP was asking for laps or splits.

This should help them visualize how the race unfolded.

http://www.flashresults.com/2008_Meets/indoor/NCAADI/

1 Kyle Alcorn Arizona State 8:00.82

2:45.08(2:45.08) 5:34.43(2:49.36) 8:00.82(2:26.39)

2 Andrew Bumbalough Georgetown 8:02.22

2:44.20(2:44.20) 5:34.38(2:50.19) 8:02.22(2:27.85)

3 Kyle Perry Brigham Young 8:02.63

2:43.65(2:43.65) 5:34.66(2:51.01) 8:02.63(2:27.97)

4 Robert Curtis Villanova 8:02.79

2:44.16(2:44.16) 5:34.51(2:50.36) 8:02.79(2:28.28)

5 Kurt Benninger Notre Dame 8:03.61

2:44.48(2:44.48) 5:34.40(2:49.93) 8:03.61(2:29.21)

6 Josh McDougal Liberty 8:03.77

2:43.97(2:43.97) 5:34.23(2:50.26) 8:03.77(2:29.55)

7 Sean Quigley La Salle 8:05.20

2:44.33(2:44.33) 5:34.91(2:50.59) 8:05.20(2:30.30)

8 David McNeill Northern Arizona 8:06.18

2:43.59(2:43.59) 5:35.61(2:52.03) 8:06.18(2:30.57)

9 Brandon Bethke Wisconsin 8:06.63

2:44.78(2:44.78) 5:35.24(2:50.47) 8:06.63(2:31.40)

10 Matt Debole Georgetown 8:07.35

2:44.37(2:44.37) 5:35.05(2:50.68) 8:07.35(2:32.30)

11 Luke Gunn Florida State 8:07.98

2:44.97(2:44.97) 5:34.72(2:49.76) 8:07.98(2:33.26)

12 Mark Buckingham Florida State 8:09.98

2:44.61(2:44.61) 5:35.16(2:50.55) 8:09.98(2:34.83)

13 Patrick Smyth Notre Dame 8:10.33

2:44.65(2:44.65) 5:35.39(2:50.74) 8:10.33(2:34.95)

14 John Kosgei LSU 8:10.67

2:44.79(2:44.79) 5:34.64(2:49.85) 8:10.67(2:36.04)

15 Austin Ramos UCLA 8:14.20

2:43.90(2:43.90) 5:34.93(2:51.04) 8:14.20(2:39.28)

16 Lex Williams Michigan 8:27.23

2:44.82(2:44.82) 5:34.92(2:50.11) 8:27.23(2:52.31)

Didn't Bowerman tell Pre "you don't win the first lap, you win the last lap"? He didn't lead after one thousand meters, he didn't lead after two thousand meters, but Kyle delivered with the fastest last one km split.

I actually agree with you, although not about this race in particular. This was a pretty awesome race and 8 flat is still a legit time

link to video of race anyone?