the 800m bits

is there nobody willing to answer these questions?

Get out the troll stick. Even if he's not one he needs a good flogging

i can see there are no thinkers in the US, where can i find a more intellectual site?

Sorry, but I don't have a lot of time for answering these questions just at the moment. And although I've had some success with 800m runners, I hesitate to put myself forward as an expert.

As always, Google is your friend. I just entered "800m training" and got more than a thousand hits. I just picked this one at random and thought it had some good ideas:

http://ezinearticles.com/?10-Essentials-Tips-for-800m-Training&id=831023

Good luck. I wish I could remember the URL's, but I know there are other sites that are more specifically oriented toward training and coaching--this is more of a general-interest/gossip-type site (not that that's a bad thing!). Maybe somebody else can add some sites, or you could try Google for something like "track and field coaching."

Anyway, good luck!

thanks but i have to admit, I already have some feel for the answers to my questions, i just hoped other people would weigh in with some opinions and a discussion could ensue.

Excellent questions you bring up. I think that's one of the reasons the 8 is such a crapshoot - no one knows how to train for it properly (for them). It's one of the most difficult races to handicap,too; I think largely due to its rather peculiar energy system requirements.

I, for one, would be interested in what you specifically mean when you refer to the mechanical side of it. Are you referring to stride length/strength, turnover rate, that sort of thing? If so, I'd say hills definitely improve one's fitness in that area.

Hope you get some informed feedback on your queries. I'll be watching with interest as well.

cheers

I do ask because i am coaching an 800m at the moment who has a good pedigree and the event seems to confuse everyone. The Australian record for 800m was set at the 1968 Olympics and is 144.40.

Mechanical efficiency. As an engineer would view it i guess. Biomechanists do describe this in their own way and call it biomechanics. I've found over the years that their knowledge can describe the problem but cannot describe a solution. So i looked further.

In Jeet Kune Do, a martial art decsribed by Bruce Lee, looks specifically at 'mechanics'. Where the body and limbs are at any point in time, how they interact with each other and the ground (or implement) during movement. The idea is to take out any movements which are counteracting the primary movement intention. So if an arm is not swinging through its natural path, then some adjustment can be made, or if the connection between left leg and right arm isnt coordinated, it can be re-trained.

A great example is accelerating from the blocks. The further you lean forward the more potential for acceleration. The problem is just leaning forward doesn't do the trick. It only works if the legs and hips are driving forward with equal force to the upper body. Mechanics can highlight this imbalance and address the situation with specific retraining.

When i look at the 800m i can see in Australia there is no mention of mechanics except in the general sense. The main thining about training is within the energetic side of it. I think this is only half the picture.

So mechanics is important for me. When i look at Coe, Ovett, Kipketer and Vasala for example i see exeptional mechanics. When i look at Juantorena and Cruz i also see exceptional mechanics except for me they have one major flaw, they are leaning too forward. In mechanical terms this is described as off-balance and is similar to the acceleration example in that the lower half of the body is not counterbalancing the upper half. Since their system is performing in a slightly unbalanced state more musculature must switch on just to support the posture and therefore less is available to actually run with. You can try this for yourself. Stand upright as relaxed as possible and see where you are. Then lean forward 10 degrees. See how much more tension or strain is required to stand in this position. So i wonder why run in this position?

That's kind of what i am talking about with mechanics. Sorry i don't have a concise definition, maybe someone else can help with that.

I found a great site regarding the 800m base training of the world's best that others my find interesting

http://z12.invisionfree.com/Hunter_Reports/index.php?showtopic=432

Hey Pete, it's funny how that link keeps coming back.

hey Juz wondered when i would see you. Tony's article could be a slow starter.

No one form is perfect for everyone. Strength training, drills, hills etc. will help you find your own most efficient form. Of course doing them properly is extremely important. You ever think that Juantorena and Cruz were most efficient with the form you mentioned? Don't put too much emphasis on mechanics, you'll f*** with your athlete's heads.

More importantly, peak phase does not follow base phase. Proper periodization for the 8 involves 3-4 phases leading up to peak phase. Yes 8 runners do hills(any heel). Hills are best in earlier phases(although never detrimental) and are done less towards peak phase when one may be trying to sharpen.

Ewas just simplifying the periodisation and i definitely use hills for the athletes i coach, somewhere early to mid but definitely not from the start. I usually creep them into the long running before initiating long (still aerobic) ones in the specific preparation phase and shorten into lactate range during pre-competition phase to coincide with the lactate training on the track. Hills during peaking are effective if a long period of doing them has occurred, however, volume would decrease, intensity increase and recovery increase as one moves towards the peak. Don't forget the all important downhill running, not just for over speed purposes but also for the eccentric loading and all it's injury preventative benefits.