Could you expect to see these types of improvements regardless of age if you're bumping up your training to a serious level for the 1st time?
For someone who runs 40 mpw and does road races, could that person expect to being running 5k pr's through 8k if he puts in a year of 65-70 mpw training?
this is the end wrote:
hahah...i don't know what you're judging that based off of...but unless you are speaking of the top .01% of colleges in the country, you are absolutely wrong.
many 4:15/1:55 high schoolers come into college and can't break 27. i've known some not to break 28 their freshman year. that spring they'll run 4:10 and 3:00 on the dmr lead-off. and you're saying that they are 'mid walk-on range'??? if you run 27:00 your freshman year, you are good, unless you go to a school that is consistently making ncaa's, which is a tiny, tiny, TINY minority. even if we are just speaking about D1, i would say that 27:00 is above average. if we are talking about the whole spectrum of collegiate cross country, from D1 to D2 and D3 to NAIA and independent schools, forget it.
you vastly underestimate the range for improvement which 18-22 year old bodies can show, particularly when they are exposed to truly serious training for the first time in their lives. to not allow a 27 minute, even 28 minute guy on your team is pure madness, i don't care who you recruit. you also are considering only the schools which we routinely read about on the front pages when it comes to collegiate cross country. at a VAST majority of American colleges, if you run 27 minutes FLAT, you are varsity. and you saying that these kids should pick another sport if they can't make varsity as freshman??? absolutely absurd.
i know we all have an elitist bent here at these wonderful message boards, but seeing as a 10:10 HS 2 miler just finished 30 seconds behind an 8:40 HS 2 miler in the olympic trials marathon (sell to ritz, in case you didn't catch it), you'd think the hard-workers, the late bloomers, would get a little bit more respect.
Not sure where you get that a 4:15 high school miler couldn't break 28 minutes in cross country. I ran 4:32 as a PR for 1600 in high school, and my VERY FIRST 8,000 in college CC as a freshman was 27:11. Perhaps there is ONE 4:15 miler out there who really is stretching his limit who can't break 28 minutes initially, but as the norm, no way. I'm not saying 27:00 is bad, but it's not all that great, especially for Division I. I think the Say What dude had it pretty good. I'll repost his stuff here:
Say What wrote:
"27 is mid walk on range.
26 is ok
25 is good
24 is very good"
I agree.
He also said a 28-minute guy ought to consider doing something else with his collegiate time. If we're talking Division I, then I agree with that too. Now, if he's a late bloomer and can get himself to 25 minutes or faster by his senior year, then join the team then. Unfortunately late bloomers don't have a place in college athletics. Maybe they'll get better later, but college coaches want kids who can run well NOW, not in 10 years.
My first 8k was a 32:14. You know what my last one was? 24:36. Granted that first race was horrible but my freshman PR was only 27:46. My coach could care less about me my first year (correctly) but I worked my ass off and got better. Saying I have no place in college athletics is insane.
Your coach must be centrowitz
My freshman year I started the season running low 29's in the 8k, but I started to improve throughout the year running 27:40 (fast course) and running 28:25 at rim rock in kansas at the end of the year. I ran one year in high school though and was a high 17's low 18 in the 5k. My sophomore year of college I was running low 27's at the beginning of the year and mid 26's consistently throughout the rest of the year. The big thing high schoolers recognize is that mileage is much more important than in high school. I was doing 35-40 in high school and in college I bumped up to 50-60 my freshman year to 70-80 my sophomore year so training smart and increasing mileage steadily you will improve drastically in the 8k.
Not sure where you get that a 4:15 high school miler couldn't break 28 minutes in cross country. I ran 4:32 as a PR for 1600 in high school, and my VERY FIRST 8,000 in college CC as a freshman was 27:11. Perhaps there is ONE 4:15 miler out there who really is stretching his limit who can't break 28 minutes initially, but as the norm, no way. I'm not saying 27:00 is bad, but it's not all that great, especially for Division I. I think the Say What dude had it pretty good. I'll repost his stuff here:
I was thinking the same thing, 28 minutes for a 4:15 HS miler? That was training pace in my HS, granted we hammered almost all the time but the only time we ran slower than 5:20 per mile was on a "recovery day" or a run of longer than 8 miles, Our straights & curves workouts went close to 10 minutes for 2 miles, officially 'cause i did it in the Easter vacation meet and pissed off the other teams & coaches. If a High school 4 15 miler cannot break 28 there is defintely something wrong with this generation of runners.
hey idiot wrote:
My first 8k was a 32:14. You know what my last one was? 24:36. Granted that first race was horrible but my freshman PR was only 27:46. My coach could care less about me my first year (correctly) but I worked my ass off and got better. Saying I have no place in college athletics is insane.
No it isn't. My school went through the Title IX roster cuts when I was there, and guess who got left out in the cold? Guys like you. We couldn't even allow them to come to practice. When you can have only 13 guys at practice, running over 27:30 or won't cut it at a reasonably competitive D1 school.
Why couldn't you allow them to come to practice? Participation numbers? I admit that I was not worthy of being on a D1 program fresman year but I worked my f***ing ass off to get better and it paid off. Could I have walked on as a junior or senior running sub 25?
I think it would be useful to see what guys on here actually ran as freshmen, and where that put them.
25 years ago, my frosh 5M PR was 25:39 and I ran sub-26:00 two other times. That put me about the 4th or 5th man (I ran anywhere from third to sixth) on an NAIA team that went to Nationals at the time.
High school 2M PR was a puny 9:44; HS 5K cross PR was 15:59, so I beat the 10:30 + 5k HS cross PR standard by nearly a minute.
Zat0pek wrote:
High school 2M PR was a puny 9:44;
Puny? Don't know that much but 9:44 sounds pretty good to me.
sweathog wrote:
hey idiot wrote:My first 8k was a 32:14. You know what my last one was? 24:36. Granted that first race was horrible but my freshman PR was only 27:46. My coach could care less about me my first year (correctly) but I worked my ass off and got better. Saying I have no place in college athletics is insane.
No it isn't. My school went through the Title IX roster cuts when I was there, and guess who got left out in the cold? Guys like you. We couldn't even allow them to come to practice. When you can have only 13 guys at practice, running over 27:30 or won't cut it at a reasonably competitive D1 school.
Gonna have to agree with this. I ran Division III, and we had a bad team when I was there, and I'm not sure anyone on the team ever ran as slow as 32:14. Maybe in a torrential downpour someone might have.
And to the dude who got better and later ran 24:36, well good for you. I said that if you got better you could join the team then. Division I schools especially don't need any 28+ minute guys running for them. It's just not fast enough. So yes, as a 28-minute guy, you had no business running in college (Division I or II). Late bloomers happen, and that's why all colleges should allow walkons at least a shot initially. Train like mad over the summer and then come and bust a time that will raise the coach's eyebrows. 32:14 just ain't it brother. Props to you for getting faster though.
I'm a freshman now. I ran 9:20/ 4:20 in high school and probably could have gotten close to 4:15 in the right race. My pr this xc season was only 27:10. I ran 60-70 miles a week and stayed healthy, so Im not sure why I was so slow. I also know an actual 4:15 guy who ran over 28 for a lot of his races and I think his best may have been high 27s. Just saying, it's not rare for guys who were pretty good in high school to only run 27ish their freshman year
Zat0pek wrote:
I think it would be useful to see what guys on here actually ran as freshmen, and where that put them.
25 years ago, my frosh 5M PR was 25:39 and I ran sub-26:00 two other times. That put me about the 4th or 5th man (I ran anywhere from third to sixth) on an NAIA team that went to Nationals at the time.
High school 2M PR was a puny 9:44; HS 5K cross PR was 15:59, so I beat the 10:30 + 5k HS cross PR standard by nearly a minute.
As a freshman in college, I got down to low 26s regularly in CC; my all-time 8,000 CC time is 25:15. As a high school senior I had a 5,000 CC best of 15:48 and a 3200 best of 9:48.
hey idiot wrote:
Why couldn't you allow them to come to practice? Participation numbers? I admit that I was not worthy of being on a D1 program fresman year but I worked my f***ing ass off to get better and it paid off. Could I have walked on as a junior or senior running sub 25?
Yes, participation numbers. I always thought it was strange that they don't count just scholarships for Title IX, but number of participants. So even though showing up and running doesn't cost the school anything, they still can't allow it. You sure could have walked on later running sub-25. You'd make top 7 at all but a handful of schools with that, assuming it's a legit course. Unfortunately it would have probably been harder to make that improvement running on your own, though -- which is why the whole thing doesn't really make sense to me. But anyway congrats on your improvement.
ninefiftyeight here wrote:
Zat0pek wrote:High school 2M PR was a puny 9:44;
Puny? Don't know that much but 9:44 sounds pretty good to me.
25-30 years ago 9:44 would not win alot of dual meets in So Cal, i think every team in our league had at least one runner under 9:30. I think it was 1970 when Granada Hills had 5 guys under 4:20 in the mile led by Dave Babiracki they dead heated all 5 in the City XC. I am sure those guys were all sub 9:44 just as an example of how competitive it was back then.
I'm not bashing a 9:44, more than i am sympathizing with Zatopek with how fast you had to run to get noticed 25, 30, 35 years ago.
frosh wrote:
cuz i ran a 25 37 and my coach pretty much made me feel like shit. and so i just wanted to see if he was right
Grow a pair, buddy! You are running men's cross country, so be a MAN. Your coach isn't there to hold your hand and read you bedtime stories.
If you are satisfied with a time that others think is good, you won't run anywhere near your potential. Too often people become content when they reach others' expectations for them.
Everyone is motivated by different things and there are many coaching styles out there. Personally, I don't think that enough coaches are really straightforward with their athletes and tell them when they can do/should have done better. Some athletes will always push themselves and some need to be reminded sometimes. I guess your coach thought you needed to be reminded (I'm not saying he should have made you feel "like shit").
As far as talking about cc times, we should all save our breath. Courses/conditions vary way too much. I've seen a few 27min 8k fitness level guys run mid-25min 8ks over the years because of generous course measurements.
oldhalfmileguy wrote:
25-30 years ago 9:44 would not win alot of dual meets in So Cal,
That's because it's Southern California. In many parts of the country that is an all-state time.
I ran 25:15 as a frosh but that was at Terre Haute. Depends on type of competition and course obviously. But I would say on a flat course for a D1 guy somewhere in between 26-27 is pretty good.
oldhalfmileguy wrote:I'm not bashing a 9:44, more than i am sympathizing with Zatopek with how fast you had to run to get noticed 25, 30, 35 years ago.
That time got me third in the state meet in small division in a small state.
It would have won every single state meet in that division for something like the next 18 years and 23 out of the next 25.
how good is a 24:15 for a true frosh with minimal background training? how common is this sort of time?
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