To those who have broken four minutes

You should just run the 1500. If your problem is the last 250 meters, you can solve 2/5th of it by focusing on the 15 instead of the mile. Run 3:41.9. It's exactly the same as running 3:59.9. Everybody knows this and agrees with me.

In all seriousness, I hope you do break 4. Keep training, it only becomes more difficult if you get away from track for any amount of time.

Some simple questions.

1.) How tall are you?

2.) How much do you weigh?

3.) How much can you bench?

4.) How many pullups can you do?

5.) Do you separate your base phase from your speed phase?

6.) Do you do any training at altitude?

The first four questions give us a sense of your morphology. Some guys just have ideal genetics (i.e., Ryan, Cram, Walker, Koman) tall, light and naturally fast and really don't run high quantity, but really high quality. Some guys are small and really compact who attack the mile with high volume (i.e, Bekele, Geb, Webb) and huge aerobic capacity. Some guys are hybrids, a little bigger and more robust (i.e, McMillian, Scott). I think it would be helpful to know where you fit.

The last two questions are pretty simple but often overlooked. Cram, Koman, Bekele, Geb all took advantage of altitude training during their base phases. They do/did little high quality speed during altitude buildup. This allows you to gain more strength with less mileage and less speed which can help you with soreness and injury.

It would be interesting to know more.

I never broke the 4, but I trained with five or six guys who did. A lot of the success really depended on how you tailor your training to your morphology.

hi mate- maybe some of this might help? im self coached and have a few sub 4's under my belt- so here goes!!

in my view anyone who has come through a mile in 2:59 has a real shot at sub- and that is also based on your 800 and 5km times. I have always attack the mile with sessions below, @ and above distance. The key is building up to these sessions by way of progression- rather than trying to run them too soon and too quick. I have all my training on my website

www.jamesthie.com

, which shows that when ready to run close to or under 4minutes the following applies:

4mile race sub 19:20 (so your 5km is there or there abouts)

6 x 800m 2mins rec @2:08-10 - 3km pace

10 x 400m (5/5) 1 min after 5- 3mins sub 60's

6 x 300m (3min rec) @ 40.3/7

15 x 200m (30s rec) @28.5/7

these are all MY indicators that im ready to run sub or close- but this is the end product of months of hard work and after 15 x 400m hill reps with fast run rec- the 300's feel very short and easy!!

cheers and good luck james

I doubt strength is the real issue here. Plenty of < 14 5000m runners without a < 4 mile. I coached a post-collegiate with identical 800 and mile times as you who could run 13:58 in the 5k. He was in a college program where they kept him hammering away on the strength side, the typical 80 miles/week, with limited work below 60/400m pace. All this got him after a while was tired and discouraged. By the time he began rethinking his approach, even a set of 29 sec 200m reps improved his 1500m. He had just left the speed work side of things alone for too long.

Slowing at the end of the race can result from a lack of muscle power as much as stamina. A lack of power means you have to work harder for that mile pace, and usually at a higher oxygen cost.

What's holding you back is more likely your 400/800m speed. You need to get closer to 1:50 or so to make a run at < 4, or develop the glycolytic angle. I'd suggest taking a year with the miles capped at 60/week, and bumping up the quality. Lots of ways to go about this, but basically, you have to avoid the common pitfall of piling up miles for the sake of miles then leaving yourself short for the essential sharpening work.

email if you want some more help.

dsrunner@juno.com

Chris Knight wrote:

Proof?

i can't name names since people like to remain anonymous here, but the previous poster seems to be legit for one.

if people wouldn't be so negative on the boards, the good runners like those i happen to know from college, etc...might be more willing to supply their names. (i for one usually choose not to b/c i don't feel like having a bunch of the jerks who post here digging up some of the shitty results i had in the past!) believe me, i know they look here when they get bored, just like us mortals.

My stats5'11145135 ten times two setsmaybe ten pullups..I lack pure core strength but can lift a good ammount of weight for my size..I have not really seperated my base from my speed...I always just trained off strength...My thought is that I need to start doing more work catered to 5k 10k stuff. I'm talking about getting better at doing workouts like 10x1k off a minute at -2.50-2.55 pace. Or do more hill sessions...I agree with what alot of people here are saying though in that I just need to get stronger through long repeats and tempo runs. I have never done any training at altitude..

Listen to this guy. You most likely need to do a lot more work at 60s pace and faster.

To those about to break 4: we salute you.

dsrunner wrote:

Plenty of < 14 5000m runners without a < 4 mile.

But how many < 4 milers who can't break or come close to 14 minutes?

Legit: I'd be interested to know your history of tempo/LT training over the last few years. If you can come through relatively comfortable in 2:59 then crack, in my opinion this is a strength issue--more specifically, a lack of background with threshold running.

Of course, not knowing your pr progression over the last several years and your specific training, this is only an educated guess on my part. But with prs of 1:52/14:35 and feeling comfortable with 2:59 at 1200, to me this means lack of threshold background.

I ran similar times as you: 1:50, 3:46 1500, 14:45. Within a few months of incorporating tempo running into my schedule, my 5k dropped to 14:10. Within a year I ran 1:47, 3:39, 13:49. I changed no other variables in my training, just added tempo runs, progressively making them longer and faster through two seasons of development.

I think the key is to be patient with this type of training and don't rush it. Incorporating too much can have adverse effects. Like I said prior, once every two weeks would be enough to get started. You might see immediate improvements right away, or it may take you a full season.

Haha well this might be the other problem. My history of threshhold work is that I ran very hard. In college, we would essentially race. My workout "prs" haha are about 19.00 for four miles, 24.50 for 5 miles and 27.00 for 5.5 miles. Basically I would finish alot of my sessions bent over and winded. Alot of times I would go out in about 4.40 pace and come home weak. I have actually been reading alot of daniels lately and know now that I need to be controlled for longer periods of time...ie. 5.10 pace for 6-8 miles.

I took this from another thread. Joe Rubio offers very solid advice and has worked with numerous athletes at your level.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070210141608/http://wls3.com/running/rubio.php

Sign a contract with me. I wil provide you with proper medical care and soon you will run 3:53-3:57.

i've broken 4 and 3:40. its extremely obvious when you're ready to do the deed. when you're in good enough shape, running 3:56 doesn't feel any worse than running 4:01. My fastest race felt easier than many of my slower ones. just train hard and believe in yourself. my training was pretty tough, but i never logged more than 80 mpw. it was a lot of fast runs and track work. there is no secret to it.

14 35 really isn't that much worse than 1 52 if you look at college running across the board, so although doing longer tempos will indeed help, also try maybe after some of your easy days to do some 200s or 300s at just a tad under 4 min/mile pace just so that pace starts to get programmed into you.

There are quite a few folks that have run faster, and most of them have probably logged more sub-4's than me. However, here's my 2 cents...

I don't think more miles is necessarily the answer. A good, consistent (non-junk miles) 80 miles per week is probably suffice. As some other posters have suggested, it appears that you instead need to improve/increase your anaerobic threshold. At the end of the day, 60sec quarter pace should feel comfortable to you. My advice is that your training should be designed with this idea in mind - 1200m in 3:00 should feel great and the race starts there (not struggling to hold on).

I averaged about 80 miles a week and didn't have stellar 5km/8km strength. I made hill repeats/fartlek/tempo runs fixtures of my fall/winter training. In the spring/summer I did a lot of work at or around mile pace - email me if you would like some specifics - so that 58-59 per quarter felt second nature.

I presume that you are doing the standard miler workouts - 10x400m with 60sec recovery, 25x200 with 30secs recovery etc etc? Perhaps adjust the goal times and recovery for these sessions and even think about how you approach each rep - is each rep progressively faster? are you simulating racing by mixing up the pace?

Just some thoughts. As I said earlier, email me if you would like to see some examples of workouts.

Good luck.

Hilly

Read your additional background info. You got it backwards. If anything you did too much and too hard on the tempo training -- swatting flies with a sledgehammer. Good chance doing more you'll just be grinding the wheels deeper into the mud.

Now it is funny to me that some here insist you need more of what you've been doing. They don't mention there are guys who can lap you in the 5k and still cant break 4 for the mile. Why is that? Not to get anyone's cackles up but your stamina is really much in line with Steve Scott's.

And since someone mentioned Irv Ray that reminds of the chase for < 4 with Hall and Webb several years ago. Hall hammered away, piling up miles and improving his cruising speed, but Ray and Hall made the critical mistake of believing that endurance gains would equate directly to notably faster mile times. Since he had not improved in the 400 and 800 Hall was more or less stuck. All this while Webb was bashing out 58" 400m reps and doing about half the weekly miles. Yep, some milers will make big jumps doing more tempo work and some wont. It's really a case by case basis, not a one size fits all.

I'm thinking of a miler who did no tempo runs, minimal miles, and 49 400m speed. Believe he had 1:50 800 speed, and a 2:54 1200m best in practice before he broke 4.

Personal experience / performance:

:52 (split)

1:51

3:59

8:05

14:18

At the time I was doing a lot of threshold-type stuff. One long tempo-ish 7-10 miles between 5:10 and 5:30 pace, one hard fartlek session (hard on the recovery, really hard on the interval), one good interval session, one long run 12-15 miles, usually 4 races/month (some weekend doubles, some weeks off), and a few days of 'easy' running. 60-70 miles a week all in singles. I had excellent training partners that were all close in ability and we were able to push each other every day.

Core/light weights 3-4 times a week just for total body fitness, no strength stuff.

Easy is however you define it. At the time I was probably capable of running every run at 5:40 pace without much stress, typically my non-workout miles were at 6:00 pace, but that may have been a bit extreme.

Sadly luck is a big factor when you're that close. You have to be in the right race at the right time. I don't want to sound negative but if you weren't able to do it in college with no worries other than running and a few hours of class, doing it while trying to support yourself with a job isn't going to be easy. Best of luck.

Firstly what is your 1500 pb? I only ever ran 2 mile races and ran 4 mins dead and then 3.59. I was more of an 800/1500 runner(1.49.1 & 3.41.0)and averaged about 40 mpw, very low mileage, but would do 3 intense quality sessions a week. I personally think your 800m time needs to come down to at least 1.50 and your 1500 pb needs to be around 3.42 to be able to run a sub 4 mile. I don't necessarily believe more mileage is the answer. A key session for me was 4x1 mile on nice flat parkland with 4 minutes recovery between reps with the last rep flat out. Never thought to much of the 4 minute mile barrier at the time but thinking back was prob my best achievment. Good luck.

This sounds weird but my 1500 pb is only 3.48. It's pretty much the same story though, I come through a bit quicker through 1200 but the same story.

The strange thing about all my efforts are that I actually feel good at 1200! Almost easy. I don't feel like I am going to hit it and then it happens. Almost like a 400m race where you feel amazing up until the last 100m.

One thing I do know about my body however is that I cannot handle 100mpw, at least not while competing. I know 80 is right for me I just need more qualoty out of my sessions.