Best female world record in terms of male ranking

You need to get a life...

Avocados Number wrote:

As for the Paula pacing issue, it's been discussed plenty in the past. Some think that it's O.K. to use male pacers in a race that is restricted to female competitors; others (including me) don't. We all have our own reasons.

You seem to have gone a bit quiet of the number of pacemakers she used....

Maybe I'm just reading a lot of these wrong, but it seems a lot of people are not getting the point. Someone pointed out that Paula's record isn't valid for this comparison because she had pace setters the entire way - something none of the male world record performances or the women's track PRs had.

Whether or not Paula's record is a legit WR is irrelivant, it just doesn't compare to the rest of the world records very well for the purpose of this comparison.

A point to the Paula pacemakers.

It would be like, in a 10000m track race, having people drop back to be lapped and then pace a couple laps.

That is against the rules because it is not in the spirit of competition.

The men pacing Paula were not competing against her.

The reason that pacemakers that lead and the drop out are allowed is because that you never can prove that they were not really trying to compete.

Now she ran the time and it was a great feat. But there was some assistance and the assistance was not in the spirit of competition. That is what makes it a bit controversial.

I personally give her credit for the time she ran, though.

It's like setting a PR by finishing behind someone that is better than you. It counts as a PR.

london watcher wrote:

You seem to have gone a bit quiet of the number of pacemakers she used....

Consider that some of us are trying to do things other than engage in debates on an Internet message board.

I'm confident that you can dig up the pertinent information about Paula's pacing arrangement, Bedford's negotiations with the IAAF over his proposal, and various discussions over the propriety of the set-up.

Feel free to debate about what should and shouldn't be allowed for record purposes -- regarding pacing, windbreaks, course conditions and measurements, drug restrictions and testing, altitude, and whatever else you can think of. I have my own ideas; you probably have different ones.

london watcher wrote: You [Avocado's] seem to have gone a bit quiet of the number of pacemakers she used....

He had momentarily confused Radcliffe with Kastor. Deena reminded him of "mole" and so his original number was rounded down from 6.023.

turkey leg wrote:

Maybe I'm just reading a lot of these wrong, but it seems a lot of people are not getting the point. Someone pointed out that Paula's record isn't valid for this comparison because she had pace setters the entire way - something none of the male world record performances or the women's track PRs had.

Whether or not Paula's record is a legit WR is irrelivant, it just doesn't compare to the rest of the world records very well for the purpose of this comparison.

Fair enough, but you would also have to eliminate other mixed races in which there have been male pacemakers. Certainly I know Mizuki Noguchi had them at Berlin in 2005 doing much the same as Radcliffe's at London 2003.

london watcher wrote:

Fair enough, but you would also have to eliminate other mixed races in which there have been male pacemakers. Certainly I know Mizuki Noguchi had them at Berlin in 2005 doing much the same as Radcliffe's at London 2003.

As did Takahashi in 2001.

I'm not saying that those women received less assistance than Paula did. Nor am I saying that I approve of the assistance that they received, or that I regard their times as legitimate for record purposes. They were, however, running in mixed races, and were not eligible to set a world record for an all-female race. The London organizers and Paula, however, wanted an all-female race (which would spotlight Paula), but also wanted male pacemakers to assist Paula to run a faster time. It was that combination that made Paula's pacing arrangement even more controversial than other instances of males pacing females in road races.

Sammy Korir paced Tergat the entire way.

Get a life...

I did realise that but as i originally said I doubt anyone would have that info so what malmo puts up is good info that allows us to make educated guesses but it would be interesting if anyone could provide the full performer lists - malmo???

critic 100 wrote:

Get a life...

The guy that's said "get a life" twice needs to get a life.

If you watch the 2003 race you'll notice the two Kenyans run mostly to Radcliffe's side.

She went through 13.1 at 1:08:02.

That split was faster than any woman ran in over the half marathon distance in the previous 2 years.

Just because you are far faster than anyone that doesn't have a penis shouldn't mean that you can never have pacemakers.

Anyway, go watch a race with Grete Waitz and see her pacemakers.

They're all men, Waitz had the same problem.

So I guess Waitz's records don't count either.

i dont' know if this has been mentioned but paula newby frasers ironman i heard is the closest to the male world record. Can anyone back that up

How is someone running a 2:15 marathon anything like a 10k that is 6 miles and someone has to slow down and let the guy lap them to help them at the end of the race? These guys ran the whole race and never eased up to help her, they didn't jump in at half way, from the time the gun went off to the finish they were there. A 2:15 marathon isn't that easy so it's not like these guys just jogged for 26 miles, they had to be hurting also. Maybe not as bad as someone running a PR of 2:15 or racing to win but these guys had to put some serious effort to run 5:10ish pace the whole way.

And from what I have heard those "6" pacesetters turned out to be like 1 or 2 by the end so yes they must have been seriously running and got to the point that they could no longer run any further..

Also If you guys want to discredit this as a WR we should also disregard Denna Kastors half marathon record set a few years back at the philly half in 1:07ish i beleive. Steve Spence ran side by side with her the whole race easing up the last 100 meters to let her have her moment by herself. He kept talking to her and encouraging her throughout the race to keep her on pace. Same situation but since she is an american we can just let her slide huh?

God, why do you people force this? I hate to come on these boards and insult people, but really, how stupid can you get? Are none of you capable of thinking in analogies??!

The issue with Paula is very simple. It's not that it's wrong to use pacers - it happens all the time in both men's and women's races. But, as a simple thought exercise that I'm sure even all of you can manage, just imagine that a women's track race, like the 5000, were paced by men. In fact, say that Kenny B. did a tempo workout and dragged a woman to a 14:10, which would be a new world record. That's exactly what happened with Paula (if this is still confusing to you, then I can't help you any further).

Personally, it doesn't bother me that Paula did it, but at the same time it isn't fair to consider it as a "record" in the same breath as women's only races.

Apart from all of that, this thread is based on a very interesting idea - I wouldn't have guessed that the short sprints and marathon have the least difference in performance between men and women!

Also, I didn't realize that Deena had done something similar. If it's true that she was paced the entire way by a male, then I think her record should also be discounted.

what?? wrote:

Sammy Korir paced Tergat the entire way.

The difference is that he also raced Tergat. Most of the time, pacemakers in men´s races aren´t able to pace the whole way, so it was an exception to the rule. When did you ever see Geb or Kenny B having a couple of faster guys pacing them as Paula had?

PhySci wrote:

I think the proper way to evaluate the charts is to look 20-50-100-300-500-1000 deep across the board, where the marathon underperforms all events less than 1500m.

Disagree. Women aren't as deep as men, and there are social reasons and a bunch of history that explains why. Look at the WR's, because that actually tells you more about the potential that women could realize at that distance.