The return of Cathal Lombard

"True remorse is never just a regret over consequence; it is a regret over motive"

Personally I couldn't stand on the start line again

ghost wrote:

Cathal is one of the smartest intellects in the running business.

yup someone who orders their gear off e-bay must be one smart cookie

As stated by several previous posters, unless he 'came clean' BEFORE he got caught, it really is not a positive character attribute that he spilled his guts after. Neutral character attribute maybe, but certainly not a positive one.

Just curious how you can make such an absolute statement. Do you know him personally? Would you have similarly made such a statement before he 'came clean'?

Based on what specific evidence? What clean times has he run that would lead you to these conclusions?

So you are saying he is a shining example of the ethics of your average Irish lawyer? Doesn't really sound like an endorsement for the Irish Bar now.

Why not? Seriously.

Maybe people need to realize that there is more punishment involved in cheating than just a two year suspension by the governing body. There is also the non-quantifiable lifetime suspicion and bad-mouthing from your fellow athletes. Just because that is not codified by WADA or whoever does not mean that it is not one of the consequences of cheating and something every athlete should take into account when they are deciding whether to dope or not.

Problems that go with it? Like having the rest of your career always being questioned? Like that is really a big surprise to anyone.

Again, how can YOU be certain he is 'reformed'? What can we learn from him beyond 'don't dope or you'll have a lot of problems'? Do we really need his specific example to learn that?

Why does everyone always call a doping offence a 'mistake'? It makes it sound like the person is too stupid to understand that doping is not allowed. He didn't make a 'mistake'. He blatantly broke the rules of the sport, knowing full well what he was doing.

If EPO can cause a 2 minute improvement in someone like Lombard, then wouldn't it mean that someone like Bekele (who we all know is clean) would be running 24 minute 10Ks and 11 minute 5Ks if he started taking it?

Cathal is indeed a 'student of the sport' he saw what other people could do, was jealous of what they could achieve and resorted to cheating in order to boulster his moderate athletic talent.

Why do you think he can run 28.45, he never did when he was clean, he came out witha load of crap after he was caught, saying he only strated using after his form started to deteriorate AFTER he had runa 2 minute PB at 10k and 40 second PB at 5k, do you believe that? I cetainly don't.

I don't care if he offered to give monies back, he was a well payed professional, money was never the issue, he was greedy, he wanted more than he was naturally capale of and cheated. He took opportnities that other guys could have taken, he went on trips other athletes missed out on, he took endorsements away from other athletes, he took medals that should have been for others, no amount of 'sorry' will ever account for that. He should be kicked out and forgotten, he has NOTHING at all to offer the sport, people like him and David Millar are no better than those who denied denied denied, they just new that by coming 'CLEAN' they would et lesser bans.

Stop arse licking a cheat Ghost you really haven't got a clue.

What do you mean "started"? I don't think that the improvement rate is flat, either, it's probably more like a percentage or an exponential function. So, Kenny B could be more of a 13:10/27:20 guy on his own.

BroUK wrote:

It's black and white. He cheated. Why he deserves a 'second chance' is irrelevant. You either believe cheating is OK or you believe it to be wrong. It is the very existence of the middle ground being peddled by the limp wristed first poster that will ensure cheats always have the middle ground to survive in.

Rules dictate he can compete again. It is up to individual athletes how they react. If he lined up against me I would have to decide if I wanted to race against him at all or just call him a cheat, to his face, at every opportunity. For that is what he is (not 'was').

So you'd rather line up against a cheat whow asn't caught or against one who was caught but who denies cheating?

I think he'd rather line up against someone who didnt cheat period. Wouldn't you?

Yes. But the sport is rife with cheaters and if I had to choose between lining up against one who'd been caught and who trotted out the usual denials and excuses or against one who'd been caught and who fessed up, I'd rather go with the guy who owned up to cheating and said he was sorry and who had offerred to make restitution. I'd have a little more reason to believe that the second guy might be clean this time around.

But that's not the choice we are forced to make.

I would rather not race either one of them. I think the guy who got caught and says he is sorry will cheat again in a second if he thinks he can get away with it. I don't want someone like that near my sport.

I would rather have both of them drummed out of the sport permanently.

Karim wrote:

If EPO can cause a 2 minute improvement in someone like Lombard, then wouldn't it mean that someone like Bekele (who we all know is clean) would be running 24 minute 10Ks and 11 minute 5Ks if he started taking it?

No, it means that Bekele would be another run-of-the-mill 27:30-27:40 10k guy without it.

Average_Joe wrote:

But that's not the choice we are forced to make.

I would rather not race either one of them. I think the guy who got caught and says he is sorry will cheat again in a second if he thinks he can get away with it. I don't want someone like that near my sport.

I would rather have both of them drummed out of the sport permanently.

So you drove a few hours to do this race in San Francisco and you find Lombard's there. You're going to get back in your car and go home without running?

If you were at the Yankee Homecoming race on Tuesday and saw Alene Reta lining up would you have walked away? A lot of us would like to see these guys drummed out for life but that doesn't happen.

I'm not trying to make the guy a hero and I understand all of the anger. But people do the wrong thing in life now and again and when they've done it life goes on. I'd rather deal with someone who admits their wrongdoing than someone who continues to lie.

HRE wrote:

I'd rather deal with someone who admits their wrongdoing than someone who continues to lie.

No one is arguing that point. Of course there's a hierarchy between dirty cheaters who keep lying and dirty cheaters who apologize and claim they've learned their lesson. We all prefer the latter to the former.

But that doesn't mean we "wish the best of luck" to the poor reformed cheater and believe his success, post-drugs, will somehow be instructive to the rest of the world.

I raced Lombard when he was doping. He beat me at Worlds, and I resent that. Now, if I showed up at a race and he was entered, I wouldn't refuse to race or anything. I've got my own goals and I'm not going to let him affect me. But I sure as hell don't "wish him the best" -- and I think that's the basic sentiment many posters on this thread are trying to express.

I actually HAVE run the Yankee Homecoming race "against" (read: far, far behind) Alene Emere Reta, knowing who he was. Doesn't mean I don't think he's a drug cheat who shouldn't be drummed out of the sport.

So...what now? Do we need to say, "Hey, good for him. For admitting he was a lying drug cheat after caught him. Isn't that REFRESHING? I sure hope he does well now!"

No of course not. We need to recognize him for what he is. Doesn't mean you have to throw rotten tomatoes at him as he walks down the street but it also doesn't mean you have to let him try to win race prize money again.

And I would rather deal with NEITHER of them. I don't WANT to feel the need to walk away. I want him to be banned.

You are right that "life goes on". And Cathal Lombard's life will go on just fine if he never runs another race. We are not talking about the criminal justice system here. I am not suggesting we throw him in jail or prevent him from earning a living. I suggest we prevent him from earning a living at RUNNING.

Convicted drug cheats should not be allowed him to enter road races -- at least those that offer prize money. Because they have shown that they will cheat to earn that money. In the very least In the very least, we could let guys like Lombard run but automatically bar them from ever winning money. Regardless we should definitely exclude them from ever running in a world championship/Olympic race should he ever make it there.

Just how would not running races get these guys out of the sport?? Your suggestion makes no sense at all.

HRE wrote:

So you drove a few hours to do this race in San Francisco and you find Lombard's there. You're going to get back in your car and go home without running?

If you were at the Yankee Homecoming race on Tuesday and saw Alene Reta lining up would you have walked away? A lot of us would like to see these guys drummed out for life but that doesn't happen.

I'm not trying to make the guy a hero and I understand all of the anger. But people do the wrong thing in life now and again and when they've done it life goes on. I'd rather deal with someone who admits their wrongdoing than someone who continues to lie.

got senility? wrote:

Just how would not running races get these guys out of the sport?? Your suggestion makes no sense at all.

HRE wrote:

So you drove a few hours to do this race in San Francisco and you find Lombard's there. You're going to get back in your car and go home without running?

If you were at the Yankee Homecoming race on Tuesday and saw Alene Reta lining up would you have walked away? A lot of us would like to see these guys drummed out for life but that doesn't happen.

I'm not trying to make the guy a hero and I understand all of the anger. But people do the wrong thing in life now and again and when they've done it life goes on. I'd rather deal with someone who admits their wrongdoing than someone who continues to lie.

What suggestion?

Anyway, I'm not wishing Lombard the best or the worst. I actually would like to see drug cheaters given fines. It's money that drives most of them to cheat right? So why not make it cost more to pay off than it costs? I don't think that anyone should welcome him back with open arms. But with the system we have he's allowed to come back and win money again. I'm sort of puzzled as to why we have a thread with so many people outraged that Lombard is back when so many other people have returned from suspensions with less notice.

I don't have a strong opinion one way or another about this comeback, but I will say that one thing I value in a person's character is a willingness to own up to their mistakes (either intentional or accidental mistakes, and either owning up before being caught or immediately upon being caught). I can't recall any other positive athlete taking immediate responsibility like Lombard did. Good on him for that, anyway.

Personally I think drugusers should be out for life.

The main problem is that after a two year ban, the effect of the substance is probably still there. The neurological effect of having trained at higher paces, the direct effect on the muscle fibres and the ability to have trained harder without injury (due to the drugs) in terms of running mechanics.

To let a dopingoffender off the hook after only two years out, would be the same as giving a dishonest worker of bank a two year sentence, let him keep a good share of the stolen money and give him the same job back again after two years..

I see only two exceptions to this :

1) If the person was caught for a substance that is not very performance enhancing (=not steroids etc) and could have been taken unintentionally (cough medicine etc)

2) If the person comes clean and gives specific information about the suppliers of the doping.

Marius

Off-topic, Marius are you coming back next year for Bejing? Good luck.