EPO

yes it works. O2 is everything bro. Especially LD running. Just think of it like this, while you huffing and puffing to keep from going anarobic (i.e. without oxygen energy synthesis) the other chap on drugs (this is a hypothetical senario) is hardly breathing hard at all because he processes O2 better thanks to the neddle. It`s like he has a V12 engine and you got a 8 cylinder.

It makes a DRASTIC difference. It turns 4 minute gents into 3.52 guys.

rhEPO increases red cell count. If you have sufficient iron stores, that means more oxygen carrying capacity in the blood.

Thanks for the responses. But I guess my real question is that isn't it still possible to become that good naturally. Couldn't a person do enough natural work to make up for what EPO gives the runner who is taking it? I'm not talking about this for myself, but I am thinking about the elite guys. If a guy on EPO set a world record, it would still be possible for someone who is not taking EPO to beat it. And if there were two runners who were completely even in their running ability, and one began to take EPO and run faster, could the other guy do enough running and natural work to eventually beat the guy on EPO?

There have been several good, high-quality threads on this topic this year. I'm not going to re-hash them all. The jist is that the limiting factor in performance among elite athletes is at the level of the cell membrane and how fast oxygen crosses. Training, increases the mitochondria, and this helps increase the crossing of oxygen. But then so too does the presence of even more cells. All things being equal, if there are two equally trained athletes, one of whom has a higher hematocrit thanks to EPO, the higher EPO wins.

What you might be asking is if EPO matters that much. Several very knowledgeable people suggested that, in fact, EPO doesn't help poorly trained athletes that much but does help highly trained athletes quite definitely.

you are naive my friend

Paula Radcliffe has shown it can be done without drugs; years of hard work, gradual improvement.

A little Vagina envy perhaps

Sure, the other guy could od more and work harder to try and make up for the EPO. But if 2 runners did exactly the same thing, trained exactly the same way, had the same confidence, etc, and one took epo and the other didn't, you would only think the EPO athlete would win.

A general figure is one minute improement for every 15-20 minutes of competition. So 1 minute off of a 5k, 2 off of a 10k. These are for serious but not highly competitive athletes but still significant on elites.

A discussion of EPO is not complete without mentioning that it thickens your blood. The synthetic red blood cells created by EPO usage are not as viscous as normal red cells. Several cyclists have supposedly died from heart attacks caused by the heart not being able to process the thick blood as well.

I believe EPO was designed for leukemia patients and those recovering from large blood transfusions. They need the extra O2 capacity.

By the thicker blood theory, a non-EPO athlete with a well developed aerobic ability may be better off than the EPO athlete. The thicker blood in the EPO athlete will cause their heart to work harder. Their muscles may receive more oxygen though... why play with fire and guilt?

EPO isn't just being used by endurance athletes either. There hasn't been many fingers pointed at Anavar Guevara(on this board anyhow), but EPO and the drug substituted in for her first name above both clear the system extremely quickly and have long lasting effects, for athletes racing all distances. I agree with your thinking though kid, the seed of potential is the same, the difference lies in the faith in one's self.

kritter wrote:

Paula Radcliffe has shown it can be done without drugs; years of hard work, gradual improvement.

... and of course drugs. Maybe not EPO, but something engineered recently that cannot be tested for just yet. Anyone who thinks she isnt/hasnt been on something is out of their f***ing mind. If she was Asian, there wouldn't be any question. Vagina's dont travel 3 miles in under 14 minutes by themselves. Nor do they move under 2:30 for 26 and the like. I'm not a Paula hater, as I think she's cheating along with the rest of the world but come on now...

P.S. And let the MUXC2k3 bashing begin...