Running Double Standard?

Off the Grid wrote:

...there are websites where pro ball players, golfers etc complain and bellyache about the public, ridicule lesser atheletes etc...

Link?

Just like other sports have ad campaigns criticizing the lessr athletes a la Pearl Izumi.

It is simply the insecurity of runners.

It is sad really.

Runners are so used to being mocked and made fun of, that they do not even know how to accept people liking/trying their sport.

Typical loser mentality.

hgfds wrote:

Typical loser mentality.

Stop making fun of us.

Where? wrote:

Off the Grid wrote:

...there are websites where pro ball players, golfers etc complain and bellyache about the public, ridicule lesser atheletes etc...

Link?

sarcasm....

it seems people are mad about the penguins and gallowalkers simply being out there. i think this is mainly because they don't know their place. local race directors need to line people up by time; participants need to be honest with themselves and back off that front line if they won't be running that fast. this prevents a lot of problems. everyone should be able to participate in open road races, but shouldn't interfere with the participation of others. why do you think the elites never have issues with the slower runners in big road races? they don't have to navigate their way through them.

Where? wrote:

Off the Grid wrote:

...there are websites where pro ball players, golfers etc complain and bellyache about the public, ridicule lesser atheletes etc...

Link?

You left out "I suppose".

I think this is due to expectations.

Every middle school basketball player thinks he's going to play in college and make it into the NBA someday.

30 year old adults don't have that illusion.

But our sport is decentralized, and we encourage competition (at any level) through one's eighties. A 400m or a 5k on a track is the same distance everywhere, but every 16:10 runner can dream of 15:30. Illusions abound here. 30 year old basketball players (for the most part) admit that they play pick-up games with their friends or in a local league with their gym or church. 30 year old runners can mold themselves to be just as professionally driven as actual professional runners, buying into the illusion that not only are they competing, but that they are truly part of this amateur sport and that they're just a few good workouts away from breaking into another level and distancing themselves from the runners around them.

We allow this sport to--perhaps unnaturally--allow all ages, and that brings out the best and the worst in multi-generational competition.

In this sport we are both competitors and spectators, and for spectacles like the major marathons, we can toe the line with the likes of Olympic champions and run the same race. This blurs the distinctions between those two groups, and there seems to be a great desire to impose distinctions between them and establish at what level one becomes a 'good' or 'acceptable' or 'decent' runner, and, naturally, make sure the net is wide enough to include whoever is arguing the point.

Off the Grid wrote:

I suppose there are websites where pro ball players, golfers etc complain and bellyache about the public, ridicule lesser atheletes etc...

...i did not....

tm wrote:

it seems people are mad about the penguins and gallowalkers simply being out there. i think this is mainly because they don't know their place. local race directors need to line people up by time; participants need to be honest with themselves and back off that front line if they won't be running that fast. this prevents a lot of problems. everyone should be able to participate in open road races, but shouldn't interfere with the participation of others. why do you think the elites never have issues with the slower runners in big road races? they don't have to navigate their way through them.

So you are not elite either. Welcome to the club - its a big one. "know their place" who the f@#k do you think you are? A road race is supposed to be 1) fun and 2) for everybody.

Thank god we have people like you to teach the benighted souls out there how to stay out of your way....

physical place

meet official should say something like everyone under 14 mins, 15 mins, 16 mins, etc to line people up for a 5k. too many people who are going to run over 22 mins assume a spot right on the starting line. a lot of the time they probably don't know any better. this causes a lot of pushing and shoving, leading to unnecessary falls, etc. i was not and am not on a high horse. this simple step should make the race more fun for everyone. fyi, i'm not someone who should be right on the starting line.

Off the Grid wrote:

I suppose there are websites where pro ball players, golfers etc complain and bellyache about the public, ridicule lesser atheletes etc...

You make the mistake of equating Letsrun.com posters with professional runners. Although many of the criticizers apparently have sub-12 5k credentials, the pros are not the complainers.

Abacus wrote:

Off the Grid wrote:

I suppose there are websites where pro ball players, golfers etc complain and bellyache about the public, ridicule lesser atheletes etc...

You make the mistake of equating Letsrun.com posters with professional runners. Although many of the criticizers apparently have sub-12 5k credentials, the pros are not the complainers.

You are correct....letsrun posters just *write* as if they have the perogatives of elite runners.

To be honest most people who read this board are among the top 5% of participants in the sport. If their behavior mirrors their speech, it is no wonder the sport is "in trouble".

I agree with you. I never understood why so many runners seem to think that there is something wrong with anyone who runs, but doesn't do it in a super competitive way. Like somehow just because we take it seriously everyone should. Everyone has something that they do at a less than serious level. I, for example, play the guitar. I'm not planning on making a career of it. I only play when I feel like it. I'm honestly just not very good at it compared to someone who devotes hours a day to it. I'm the musical equivalent of a penguin. I'm pretty sure that Jimmy Page and Eric Clapton don't sit around talking about how much people like me piss them off. I'm pretty sure that decent musicians on the local scene don't either. So if I can enjoy music without devoting my life to it, why can't someone enjoy running without putting in the effort that we do? Every single person here has an example like mine. Every one of us has something that we do that we are happy to do at a very average level. So why is it that running isn't allowed to be one of those things?

To my experience, the reality is that the individuals at the "sharp end" of the talent continuum in T&F tend to be far more humble, accomodating, and NON-elitist than the impression you'd get from reading the LetsRun.com message board.

First, I don't think there's nearly as much animosity as it seems. Remember that this board is anonymous and many of the posters are young.

There are a few legitimate problems with the "new" running boom that do pose a threat to the health of the sport in this country:

- Encouraging mediocrity. Sure, everyone has a limited amount of time to devote to the sport but why does trying to improve have to be ridiculued (ie RBK: "Congratulations, you can't stand")? I wish recreational running were more like recreatinal triathlon. I can pretty much destroy most weekend warrior triathletes but at least they are trying to improve. They keep track of their times, they push themselves at the finish. I have a fitness jogger friend who was scolded by a race director because she kicked at the end of a 4 mile road race.

- Disassociation from competitive running. What percentage of "marathoners" in this country can name a single American elite? This is largely because the people who are making a killing on the new running boom are doing so by disassociating running from track and field. "Track and field is hard, weird, and foriegn--it's not for you. Come on, let's do a 10 hour marathon. I'll have you ready in just 2 weeks!" This also explains why Dean K is so popular. He's the ultimate participant--he FINISHED 50 marathons, a 350 mile run, etc. Ryan Hall has only finished 1 marathon, so DK must be a better marathoner.

You might not believe that this disassociation poses a threat to American running but I have a personal story that illustrates this threat nicely. A couple of years ago, I decided to run a marathon. I hadn't been running since high school (400/800) so I picked up a Runners World, found an Advanced plan, followed it to the letter, and slogged my way through a 3:45. I was pretty darn happy with myself. Based on everything I'd read, that was a good time. Then I discovered Letsrun. I was no longer so happy about my time. I registered for another marathon and started training. I had no plan to guide me--just this principle: run more. A few months later I broke 3 hours. Now I've got my sights set on a sub 4 1500. I ran 15 this morning, 14 yesterday, 18 the day before that. I know that I'll never be elite or national class but if I hadn't found this website, I would probably be guzzling GU on my way to a 50 minute 10k somewhere and thinking that I'm a superb athlete. I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that the new running boom jealously guards the secret from its adherants. Who knows how many real runners are out there, waiting to hear it. John Parker thinks that:

"not one of them was prepared, truly prepared to believe that it had not so much to do with chemicals and zippy mental tricks as with that most unprofound and sometimes heart-rending process of removing, molecule by molecule, the very tough rubber that comprised the bottoms of his training shoes. The Trial of Miles, Miles of Trials. How could they be expected to understand that?"

He's right--most of them can't understand. But among the millions of penguins out there, there have got to be a few thousand who could understand. Of those thousand, there might be a few dozen who were blessed with tendons of steel and lungs like scuba tanks. Of those few dozen there might be one for whom thousands of miles of training and a lot of luck might align to crown him or her with a laurel wreath. If that one runner misses out on the wreath because Runner's World won't give them the secret, then I think it's fair to say that the penguin culture, in its current manifestation, is a threat to real running.

I was a low 14's 5k runner in college, so winning local 5ks is almost always within reach. It's easy to stay motivated when you win gift certificates and cash prizes. So I give a lot of respect and admiration to those 25:00-30:00 5k folks who love running despite receiving nothing in return. It's a tough sport to commit to if you're not winning.

That being said, if you're a 25:00-30:00 5k runner, you really ought to take your Ipod off and move back from the front line (if you already have, then this tirade is not directed at you. My hat is already off to you). To the others, here is a general rule of thumb: if you're being passed by droves of people after 800 meters, you stood to far up, dumbass. :)

The people that do this are probably the same ones who drive 40mph in the left lane of the freeway - oblivious to the rest of the universe! I don't think this is elitist. It's about common sense and manners. I'm not going to go to a golf course and break every rule of etiquite.

Hmm said "we allow..............." you don't allow anything.

I think that there are a couple reasons why serious runners resent the general public:

1) At least some of the public is just plain old in the way. If I had a dollar for every 40 year old with a jogging stroller who felt entitled to jump in front of the start just before the gun went off, I'd be rich...

2) Complete lack of appreciation for the sport among the general public. The general public at least has an idea of what LeBron or Roger Clemens should be doing. The general public has no idea what competitive running should look like. Dean K is better known than R. Hall.

3) Competitive running, at its essence, involves a HATRED for going slow. In order to push yourself to the point where most competitive runners compete, you have to despise going slow with every fraction of your being. It is an inflexible bastard hatred-- you tell yourself that you can't possibly be happy going slow-- and you push yourself harder.

The general public isn't like that. They clap, give each other hugs, and sing cumbaya while "racing" for the cure. The general public shies away from pain in any form. This is the antithesis of competitive distance running.

In summary, it is not that distance runners aren't humble and don't appreciate that others aren't as talented as they are. A buddy of mine never broke 5 minutes for the mile in high school, but he raced until he puked a couple times each season. We all respected the hell out of him and understood that genetics was slowing him down, not a lack of chutzpah.

In contrast, the general public is a group ignorant and lazy blobs. Of course serious runners don't respect them.

RE: LR posters vs The top 1% of actual runners. I agree. But then again, e.g. top regional runners do not have to deal w/ the general public. They deal w/ those who want to be like these men/women in a few years (ie. one rung below them).

re: guy at the front of the race w/ a stroller. Thats his fault? no...its the race directors. The odds are this guy is just goofing around and having fun w/ his kid (which is a 24/7 job to those of you who dont know - a child does not have a "pause" button so you can go for a run). If this happens, then i'd hazard a guess that its not too serious a race...so lighten up.

the majority of the world (68%) hovers around the mean. The mean in a marathon is ~4hrs for men. We (people reading here) do not. We are 5-6 standard deviations from the mean (some +10). So *we* are the ones who are freaks and annomalys.

But those clustered around the mean look at us and say, "I wonder how u get to be like that. I could never do that". And if you are an arrogant prick at a know-nothing race, they will continue to think this: that you have to be self-consumed contemptuos and unapproachable ass jsut to run some meaningless race. (I have seen this @ races when I visit North America).

We all suck...the whole point of this sport should NOT be some alpha-male ranking exercise.

suggestion - if you are one of those people complaining about the penguins, approach the race director and volunteer to give a seminar to first-timers about training, how to improve, race day ettiquette (sp?) and goals etc.