Boilermaker 2007 Sub Elite

what about for females? are the times the same?

Pretty much. The idea is to make sure that there's minimal weaving and dodging going on, particularly among those running at the fastest speeds (and even so, I was involved in a 5 or 6 person pile-up at the start of last year's race when one guy tripped about 100 meters in and a bunch of us then tripped over him).

I'm pretty sure this is clear but I'm going to ask anyway:

For the online registration it asked for a previous year results (which I entered, its sub-54).

Now do I still have to email you asking to be in the corral with that time or am I all set to go?

Pretty much. The idea is to make sure that there's minimal weaving and dodging going on, particularly among those running at the fastest speeds (and even so, I was involved in a 5 or 6 person pile-up at the start of last year's race when one guy tripped about 100 meters in and a bunch of us then tripped over him).[/quote]

but there were only 10 women last year under 55:00.

delugeXX: As long as that sub 54 was run in the 2005 or 2006 Boilermaker, you're all set. If it was run at some other 15k or before 2005, you'll need to email me.

16X: I understand, but there were also more than 150 finishers below 55:00 last year. Is it fair to women to have the same cutoff time? In one respect no, but as there aren't separate men's/women's starts, perhaps you can see the problem. If they said 60:00 is the cutoff for women, there were about 350 finishers below 60 last year. So, for the over 150 men between 55 and 60 who won't get in, they're going to have to weave around the women who did.

Look at it this way, it's gender neutral, purely based on time. (I agree it's not perfect and if you have an idea on how to rectify it, I'm all ears. Believe me, there are some women on our club team I'd like to see in there but all corrals are time-based.)

Year after year my goal is 56 min, but I almost always get 58, as I did last year. However, that almost always places me in a bad spot for next years start when I put my ACTUAL time on the reg. form. What starting location will a 58 min (maybe 56) be this year?

58 would get you in the corral immediately behind sub-elite. It's not that bad time-wise (probably 10-20 secs delay). The downside is that you'll have to get into the corral early in order to be in the front part of it (there is no seeding inside a given corral), and that means a lag after warm-up and no last minute porta-pottie.

We will be going by chip time though for sub-elite entry, so that may be of some help.

Jim - my impression was that the elite and sub-elite runners last years had the lowest 300 bib numbers, but now it sounds like that has been reduced to ~150. I thought I was safely in with a 56:00 seed time when I registered last year, so I'll e-mail you some updated info. I remember the pile-up from last year - glad you were able to recover.

It is unfair to discriminate against the female sub elite. It is okay if they are involved in a huge pileup at the start? I am a former elite, and a current female sub elite who was considering racing at this event. You have made it an easy decision for me not to participate.

Jim- How many are included in the elite corral?

I would like to get into the sub-elite corral. I'm a 15 min. 5K guy. Email me with details. Are enteries comped?

Invited runners have bibs < 100. Sub-elites have bibs 100 up to around 250 or 300 (but note that that's not 300 runners because they don't have 100 invited athletes or exactly 200 sub-elites). If you have a 15k time starting with 55, then email me. If it's 56, email me anyway as the precise cut point will partly depend on the field. sub 55 is pretty much guaranteed, 55:xx is pretty likely, 56 is possible but not likely.

Sub elite entries are NOT comped. You need to register like everyone else, then email me. Don't even consider asking for Elite/Invited if your open male and can't do 47.

Regarding a female pile-up, there is LESS chance of a pile-up if everyone lines up according to their pace. If we place a bunch of women doing 6:15 in front of a bunch of men doing 5:45 (which is pretty much what you're asking for), there will be more congestion than if those women are lined up with men doing 6:15. I agree that all sub-elite women are not getting the perks of the sub-elite men. If you have a viable solution, please let me know.

why can't there be a sub elite female corrall for women under 60? in the past, there have been local masters up with the sub elites - people racing over 50 minutes. this is REALLY unfair to the best women.

Maybe you could have a second women only sub elite corral behind the first sub elite corral?

The Great Race 10k in Pittsburg has always done this Jim. there is female standards and male standards and females get into the corral with a lower time standard - the reason is that if you want competition among females - they need to see each other and know where each other are from the start. Everyone understands (or should) that it just has to be that way - you have to make it competitive for the females just as it is for the males. It cannot be just about overall time. If you only had 10 females under 55 minutes, then you had quite a few "non placers" in the men what were in a elite or sub elite corral?

Yes, I agree, we ran Boilermaker a few years back and it was chaotic at the start, probably the only thing I didn't like about the race was the start - the rest was fabulous.

this should read:in the past there have been people running over 60 minutes in the sub elite (local masters and vets). you are really doing a disservice to the top women.

boilermaker vet wrote:

why can't there be a sub elite female corrall for women under 60? in the past, there have been local masters up with the sub elites - people racing over 50 minutes. this is REALLY unfair to the best women.

Please, put the fast chicks in front of the men in the second corral (so the sub elite), if they are willing to wear spandex or bun-huggers. We have no problem with that!

I'll have to agree with Jim. If the sub-elite corral was called "Corral 1" without any mention of sub-elite and the cutoff was 55:00 (male and female), nobody would be complaining.

The only perk is the porta-johns. I know people who have been in corral 3-4 and have had no problem with this in the past. Just go in the woods near the bus drop-off. Getting to the start really isn't that hard at this race, sub-elite or not.

boilermaker vet wrote:

In the past there have been people running over 60 minutes in the sub elite (local masters and vets). you are really doing a disservice to the top women.

The sub-elite corral was a new idea added just last year and as I was involved with verifying seed times, I can say with very high assurance that everyone who got in that corral had run an appropriate time leading up to the race. Prior to 2006, the norm was for the fastest people (what we now refer to as sub-elite) to line up at the very front of the first corral, which if memory serves me, had something around 750-1500 people in it depending on the year. A course marshal would then allow a small number of the fastest into the very back of the elite corral (still separated from the elites/invited) just a minute before the start. These people were identified pre-race by the timing crew and given a bib number between 100-200. I witnessed this on more than one occasion.

It was definitely not the case that "people running over 60 minutes" were allowed into the sub-elite last year or given a 100-200 bib in the years immediately prior, although it is always possible that some sneaked in. The sole exception to this is invited runners (who are not necessarily elite). For Example, Bill Rodgers is not running in the 40's or even the mid 50's anymore, but he's not going to be relegated to a corral further back given who he is. Maybe things were different 20 years ago, I can't say as I wasn't involved at that time.

I think the phrases "REALLY unfair" and "really doing a disservice to the top women" are a bit over the top. We're not talking about the top women. The top women are in the elite/invited corral.

In any case, I just looked at last year's results. There were 16 women finishing between 55:00 and 60:00 and at least 3 of them were invited. Given that leaves around a dozen women, I will talk with the powers that be and see if it is possible to relax the women's standard by a few minutes. I think that would still be within a safe range for pace differences given the number of people involved, particularly if those folks didn't try to line up ahead of the people running 50-52.