Scott's on his own (I don't know him), but:
1.) Changing schools for academic reasons would be much more justifiable than doing it for the sake of an extracurricular activity. Schools are THERE for academic reasons. Equating sports with classes shows twisted priorities.
2 cents, I was in the middle of a reply when a certain power outage struck. I'm home now, about 30 miles north of work and the outage is w/in 10 miles of me but I've got juice to keep my beer cold, the toilets working and the computer up and runnin'.
First, I'm okay w/maintaining this conversation in a public forum.
Second, I know kids transfering for sports reasons happens all the time and yes, I don't condone it. The academic one is a lot easier to approve because the kid is taking advantage of something not available where they currently live.
Third, I don't know if Briana will fall into the pool of young runners that fail to continue thru college. The odds are not good. I hope she does. I doubt she will.
Fourth, you make a decent point about my not pressing the issue w/the parents of the kids that transfered. I could lump the three parents together and assure you they seemed to operate from a single mind. All 3 are parents of girls. I did talk w/each at length about their unhappiness w/a present situation, what things were like elsewhere, etc. And, in each case, I did ask a leading question that obviously didn't make them feel self-conscience enough. I wondered if they planned to move just because the other situation seemed better.
Want to point out here that in two of the cases, the parents did NOT end up moving entirely into the new school district and in one case a state championship was vacated because of this nonsense. I didn't press the issue because I gathered that it'd be a waste of time. I felt I'd made them think a little harder about the move and they'd initiated the conversation so they did value my opinion.
Fifth, yes, one of the trasferees initials is RW. The father claimed the coaches in Williamston weren't helpful to his then 7th grader. He didn't like that. Said he'd spoken w/Kevin Hanson (of the successful Sterling Heights Stevenson girls program) and the Rockford coaches and liked what they had to say and he was thinking of moving there. Bear in mind, RW was playing some very competitive travel soccer so the running move was made w/running in mind.
One should NOT infer that Kevin would encourage anybody to transfer across the state to his district. I don't know if that happened w/the Rockford coaches but, clearly, they weren't opposed to it. They shouldn't be painted as bad guys either but I'd hope they'd discourage any more of that if they know about it. Children are not sports pawns to be moved about for best effect.
I hope this adds to courteous debate.
You all are like the last people at a party, kicking around the empty beer cans. Give it up. Brian J. will never be a world class runner. Take it to the bank. She's done within three years. Puberty will be the end of her.
So get over it.
Reality Principle - no his thread is more like a typical college party, when one is over the next begins. Try to put you personal view about Briana's family aside, I believe the thread has headed into more of a general discussion. I for one have no idea what that particular girl's future will bring, besides wishing her the best, as I would anyone, only time will tell.
What I find interesting is what people think about those who attend a HS based on athletic reasons. The following is an extract from the National Federation bylaws:
"Interscholastic activities exist because they provide educational opportunities for youth."
Clearly this suggests that local board of educations fund athletic programs for their "educational opportunities". If true, then why object if one person moves or transfers to be able to attend a better "Educational/Athletic program"?
When a person buys a house probably two of the biggest concerns are (1) property taxes and (2) the quality of the local school system. If someone moves because they want something better for a child then they should not be looked down upon.
Athletics can offer an individual the opportunity to attend college that might not exist without. Those who say you only go to school for traditional classes fail to recognize the importance of athletics in developing the individual.
As long a D1 schools provide athletic scholarships I will support a person considering the quality of the athletic / after school programs when picking a HS. But just to clarify, the number 1 reason should be the quality of the traditional education.
My priorities are not messed up but I do see a world in more than just black & white colors.
Btw, the power outage also hit my house. Also, thanks for the info on RW, you provided a lot of info but I'm not really that familiar to follow everything you wrote.
Boring long winded nobody jackasses with no life and nothing to say trying to justify your obnoxious judgmental dumping on an age 12 young woman who has more maturity and intelligence than the lot of you.
Are you the guy who has three of his kids running? A 13 year old, a 10 year old and 7 year old?
dunes runner wrote:
Boring long winded nobody jackasses with no life and nothing to say trying to justify your obnoxious judgmental dumping on an age 12 young woman who has more maturity and intelligence than the lot of you.
Thank you for your support and imput! By inference, you are saying Joan Samuelson is obnoxious. That will surprise a legion of her friends and fans.
The kid-running and school-transfer issues are very similar. Here in my state there?s been considerable controversy lately (and a new law) regarding eligibility and school transfers. For the past few years, students have been free to transfer to different schools during the summer break without penalty. The new law makes a student/player give up half the possible games following any non-parent-move related transfer. The new law came about basically because a large number of transfers to the same school resulted in that team winning the state football title. Less discussed is the story of how two of the best transfers came from a school where there had been an incident with an assistant coach pulling a gun on a parent and other predictable turmoil within an atmosphere where that occurred.
My family?s personal stake in the issue is over, but it did form my opinions. My son was a pretty good T&F athlete, and basically washed out of the public school system in the 8th grade. He went into a private school that did address his needs well, but the HS had no track team. Under state law, he was then eligible to participate on the local public HS team. Despite lettering as a freshman, he hated the experience due to 1) Lack of expertise in technical events (his were) by the coaches, 2) Little concern over injuries and interest in the sport by the coaches, 3) a slacker/loser attitude throughout the team. He chose to ?transfer? to a different HS track program (again from outside that HS) after meeting the coaches to a couple of different and considerably better teams, picking the one which he felt suited him best. This isn?t the story of a superstar wannabe - just a kid who was seeking the best instruction and atmosphere he could find. Plot twist/happy ending - he didn?t even do track his senior year - he was focussing on studies, since he?d done well enough to get an academic scholarship to a really good school.
So why do people transfer? Moving your family to a different school attendance area or state to take advantage of athletics seems bizarre to me. But it?s complicated by stories of figure skaters and such who move to take advantage of coaches. Is it really that different? What if the kid wants to transfer? How bad would the coaching/slacker team situation have to be before it?s justified? One HS around here has a really good music program, and gets transfers in for that reason. Is that close enough to academics to be OK, or is it the same?
To me, it all boils down to the same as the kid-running issue in general - if it?s the parent pushing the idea, there?s a problem. But the situation is always so individualized that it?s impossible to be able to generalize. All you can do is look for the red flags, then examine the individual situation.
No one is suggesting that. The issue is no runner who has just finished a race, a 7 mile hard effort at that, wants, needs, deserves an immediate scolding right after the race.
It does matter who you are or what you have done, it doesn't give you the right to do that. You can specilate on why she reacted that way, but you can't justify the timing. I'm sure she wasn't planning on her remarks being picked and debated like this. You can't question who she is or her past accomplishments or her motives, just the timing.
An opinion wrote:
No one is suggesting that. The issue is no runner who has just finished a race, a 7 mile hard effort at that, wants, needs, deserves an immediate scolding right after the race.
It does matter who you are or what you have done, it doesn't give you the right to do that.
Yes, but Brianna will get over it. What she won't get over is a father who cannot decipher the difference between "play" and training. All literature supporting healthy youth sports encourages "play" or unstructured sports over training at an early age. It's not a matter of kids being wimps, it is a matter of physical growth and development - and activity being equal to that growth, not more than.
"America is soft. We're way too soft. If kids aren't sitting in front of a TV all day, drinking soda and munching on chips, something must be wrong. I must be doing something wrong if my kid wants to do more than that."
That is a statement made by a very, very controlling individual attempting to justify his poor parenting tactics. I don't really care - the one that will pay the price will be his daughter - and the list goes on......
The only thing soft is is head.
by pushy dad:
To me, it all boils down to the same as the kid-running issue in general - if it?s the parent pushing the idea, there?s a problem. But the situation is always so individualized that it?s impossible to be able to generalize. All you can do is look for the red flags, then examine the individual situation.
great statement!
That's right. The shoes fit and she's wearing them.
It's amazing how many no brainers go on a feeding frenzy when a youngster shows more class and kicks more ass than they do.
dunes runner:
Your just trying to be adversarial. You don't think it's a good idea anymore than the rest of us do.
You're trying to make it into some kind of jealousy issue. From what I see the running credentials are for the majority of the folks that respond on this board, I'd have to ask you what it is you think they/we might be jealous of. Sorry to miss out on childhood? Hardly.
16x wrote:
"America is soft. We're way too soft. If kids aren't sitting in front of a TV all day, drinking soda and munching on chips, something must be wrong. I must be doing something wrong if my kid wants to do more than that."
The only thing soft is is head.
No, actually Mr. Jackucewicz's belly is pretty soft. It shakes like a bowl full of jelly :)
Setting aside the issue of right or wrong, because there is probably no clear cut answer, except in the minds of certain people. Once you can't see the other side (and there is one) your arguemnt becomes ranting and pure fantasy instead of discussion. It is interesting how easily 16X can causually set aside Joan B's actions. For someone so worried about Briana's welfare . If it doesn't fit contribute the attack, it doesn't matter. I wonder how Briana feels about that? Who cares? I imagine your answer would be, who cares she'll get over it. Save the family by attacking the family, that makes sense.
An opinion:
I don't tell people what to say to others, J.B.'s actions are hers - I didn't comment on it. I'm sure Brianna will survive the tongue assault.....what she most likely will not survive is her training.
Do I care about Brianna? - not really. I've seen so many Brianna's in the past 25 years, I can't even begin to count or remember their names. The story ending is always the same. I'm sure she will survive. This is not a social crises. Now do what the man said, and let the thread die.
I know this thread is getting long, but in reading it I couldn't help but think of a recent interview with Arthur Lydiard where he talked about children, distance running, and burn out. Positive or negative parental influences aside, I think there does need to be some concern (as JB expressed) over the amount of HARD RACING that Brianna and the stress it is putting on her anaerobic system:
"Chicago Athlete: It is interesting to see the number of parents who have their young child in highly structured dance, swimming, gymnastics, hockey, basketball, football, or baseball programs and think this is what has to be done to learn and be successful. But, these same parents will be reluctant to have their child do distance running because the parents think the child might burn out. What are your thoughts?
Arthur Lydiard: No one will burn out doing aerobic running. It is too much anaerobic running, which the American scholastic athletic system tends to put young athletes through, that burns them out."
I just read the article from the link on the main home page. Whereas before I thought Briana's running program was a bad idea but figured her dad was probably doing what he thought was best for her at least, now I'm firmly convinced that the guy is a little bit off his rocker. It's all about him, really. But I'm done trying to convince people to change their minds; the way I figure it, if you can read that article and not come out opposed to Briana's dad, our viewpoints are so diametrically opposed that there will be no budging from either side. It would be like atheists and Christian fundamentalists trying to get each other to change camps through the use of debate. To me it seems so wrong as to be self-evident; it's hardly worth pointing out exactly why. However, other people have no problem with it, and even think it's a good idea.
One thing I do find interesting the more I think about it is the inherent assumption that Briana is a supreme talent. Not to insult her, but I don't find her times all that stunning given her level of training and experience. She may have national records, but records for young age groups are understandably soft. 17:45 for 5k is great for any girl, but on the other hand, didn't Carrie Garritson run a 35:21 10k or thereabouts when she was 11? I imagine if a lot of youngsters trained as hard and dieted and all that stuff like Briana does, her times would be more commonplace. She still has a pretty big jump to even become national class if you throw out age considerations. The only success story I can think of from young age-group running--Mary Decker--you can at least justify her hard training somewhat based on the fact that she was actually world class after a couple of years of training (plus she didn't start at age 6). Unfortunately, in the world of road races and youth running, it's pretty easy to make a good runner sound far better by listing all their wins and age group championships and such for the general public, who don't understand that sometimes the competition is virtually non-existent. As far as I can see it, Briana has shown a good level of talent, but not enough yet to even think of her being an NCAA champ in the future. You just really never know with girls her age.
What don't you understand? Do you have any type of running background? Look at the literature, there are so many "used to be" female child running prodigies including myself that have been washed up before it really matters in life.
I am not out to trash anyone, just stating facts that can be proven over and over again. I have witnessed this burnout with 99% of my collegiate teamates who have started to run and compete at a young age.
I have a daughter who is almost 11 years old, and is incredibly talented in the running department. We have both decided that maybe ninth grade would be a ideal time for her to start running somewhat on a more regular basis. In the meantime, she will continue to play soccer, ski, ride her bike....do just about what any normal 11 year old may do. There is plenty of time for her to run and have success. To me it is a pretty straight forward... no brainer concept.