Ideal tempo run for a 5k,10k guy.

According to Daniels, you have a VDOT of 70. THe sugested T pace is 5:13/mile. 5k/10k runners benefit from longer threshold workouts of about 40-45minutes. However, since the duration of the tempo run(about 40-45min) is longer than 20min, Daniels suggests running 5:23-5:25/mile. So, 45 minutes at the suggested pace is a little over 8.25 miles. Good luck sir.

remember at all times the law of diminshing returns.

The adaptions you get from doing any session get less and less each time you do it, so after doing a given session 3-4 times you've probably squeezed 70-80% of the total possible adaptions available from that workout.

The body adapts quickest and strongest to foreign stimulus, I am a 5-10km runner and like to vary my tempos between 4-10 miles mixing them up so it goes short-long-short-long... keeping the stimulus fresh.

Good Luck from me also.

I think this old post from Zuzu's comparing tempo running to surfing pretty much describes the kind of feeling you want on a true tempo run:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&thread=1163380&id=1163470#1163470

So pace isn't quite as important. But you'll probably find yourself getting down to somewhere around 5:20 miles give or take a few seconds per mile without having to work too hard, as long as you start off really relaxed and make sure you don't start trying for a pre-planned pace.

The 10-12 mile things can be pretty hard on you if you do them more than once every few weeks. I like most of mine to be 4-5 miles with a 7-8 every 3rd or 4th one. The longer ones start off about 15 seconds a mile slower for a couple of miles, but they're almost as fast by the last mile as some of the shorter ones are. I like doing about 6 tempo runs per month on average and having a couple of other things that are similar but a little faster, like 20 x 400 with 40-50 seconds off or 8-10 x 1,000 with 60-90 seconds off or 3 x 2 miles with 2-3 minutes off. That provides a little variety in the pace without really making it any harder. I can make it as hard as I like, but it usually just makes me stale when I try to test myself very often in workouts rather than train myself.

frunt own wrote:

remember at all times the law of diminshing returns.

The adaptions you get from doing any session get less and less each time you do it, so after doing a given session 3-4 times you've probably squeezed 70-80% of the total possible adaptions available from that workout.

The body adapts quickest and strongest to foreign stimulus, I am a 5-10km runner and like to vary my tempos between 4-10 miles mixing them up so it goes short-long-short-long... keeping the stimulus fresh.

Good Luck from me also.

I've been doing something in the range of 4-6 every other week, and every so often I'll throw in a longer tempo. The one I did today was a bit over 45 minutes, because I went by distance and not time. Are you saying that if I do the same workout week in and week out, I lose pretty much all the benefit from it?

Also, am I supposed to slow down the pace as the tempos get longer? My most recent tempo I was running 5:20 pace pretty effortlessly. I mean, probably about 80-85%.

Thanks to all of you guys for your replies, it's greatly appreciated. You guys are very helpful.

The two tempo runs I like doing for 10k training are 5-7 miles with negative splits, starting out at my HM pace and finishing near my 5k pace. First half should be pretty easy until you solidly cross into the anaerobic range. My other tempo workout is throwing in a couple of 2k-2 mile intervals at 5k pace into the middle of a 10 mile run.

As far as doing the same workout, there is the danger of stagnation - most of us need to mix things up to stay on top of things mentally. The second is that until you reach racing season, it's a good idea to slowly increase your training load so that you don't plateau, and then back off the miles, but not the intensity, as you approach your key races.

Alot of people miss-understand the law of diminshing returns as I put it before, by assuming that after doing as session more than 4-5 times it becomes bad for you. That is not true. But you will not be getting the same benefit from it that you were initially and that you could be getting by varying it.

So essentially yes. If you do the same workout week in week out ( for I think more than 3 weeks) you will only get negligeble benefit from it.

Try not to get to hung up on paces etc for tempo runs. Tempo is an effort not a speed. In a perfect world you would be able to go out and run at 80-90% for a given time and be happy that the work was done. But in practise I would imagine you, like me, need more feed back than that.

I tend to do the same temp courses, so every 3-4 weeks I'm coming back to a course that I have historical data from and know the distance of. I usually only take the final time but will observe "checkpoints" to see what pave I'm on.

The thing to remember is, it doesn't matter, don't get hung up on it if it's slower than what you expected. Chances are if you ran slower than what you expected or what you have before then you were working harder and will be a more beneficial session in the long term.

The great irony in training is that the sessions we really crush don't actually cause that much adaption to take place they just give a confidence boost.

Given below, is a list of sample workouts that will help you to improve your LTRS (I myself strongly believe that LT-workouts are more important than "traditional" faster speedwork, if you are interested to improve over distances of 10K and longer):

1. Run two 10-minute repeats at your current 10-K race pace. Jog easily for 4 to 6 minutes between the repeats. This pace is slightly faster than your LTRS.

2. Do steady 25-minute runs at a pace about 12 seconds per mile slower than your current 10-K race pace. This is your approximate LTRS.

3. Do 4-6 2000 meter repeats at LT-pace, resting for 90 seconds after each repeat. There are unconfirmed rumors that the famous Haile Gebrselassie does this workout in his training.

4. As part of 10-14 mile run, run 2 segments of 2-3 miles at threshold pace (e.g. 3 miles easy - 2.5 miles at threshold pace - 3 miles easy - 2.5 miles at threshold pace - 1 mile easy.)

5. Run 12K-races, 15K-races, half marathons, and 25K-races hard.

6. As part of a longer run of 9-14 miles run a segment consisting of 3-5 sets of running 10 minutes at LT-Pace and running 5 minutes easy.

7. 5x1mile at 10 seconds faster than your LT-pace (approx. 12K-pace) with 60 seconds rest after each repeat.

http://www2.cs.uh.edu/~ceick/lt.html

In part to break things up, in addition to doing longer tempos or cruise intervals, you can also do multiples of as short as 5 min., with 1 min. rest per 5 min. run. So you can do 6 or 8 X 5 min. with the 1 min. break or 3 or 4 X 10, always using your 20 min. target pace.

The shorter ones are much easier to do on a track where you try to get into a rhythm and clock even 200/400 splits.

Thanks a lot for the responses. So it seems general consensus is to vary the tempos week in and week out. Does this just mean to change the distance of the tempo? The course? The speed? I had originally planned on doing 2k repeats too, so it helps that others think it is a good idea.

One more thing, the goal of a tempo, I've been told, is to run "relaxed hard". As in, as hard as you can go without losing your form too much, as far as I know. Is this true? Let's say I wanted to be in 30:30/14:40 shape in the spring, would it be intelligent to run my tempos at an ideal LT pace for those types of efforts? Or is it more intelligent to run the paces of let's say my PR from last track season. I don't know waht kind of shape I'm in, so I don't know which efforts to base my tempo runs on.

Once again, thanks for the positive and helpful responses.

the previous posts have solid advice. You want to mix it up, above, below, and at LT pace (refer to Daniels Threshold intensity/pace). Roughly this is around 15k race pace (but that might not be a distance that you've raced so its best to estimate AND go by feel). You don't want to kill yourself in a "tempo" workout and you should always at least be able to negative split.

try a 20min tempo run right at LT pace effort (prob. around 5:22 down to 5:15 for you). Thats not even going to be 4 miles, but its a little faster so its okay.

Also, the 6-10 mile runs closer to marathon race pace or slower than your LT are a good aerobic stimulus and reinforce the shorter, real tempo efforts.

finally, 2k reps are very good for hitting on a pace faster than your LT...almost current 10k pace is good, and with a pretty short (2min rec. jog between) each. Say something like 5 by 2k in 6:20 down to 6:10.

These efforts are "solid" and you should be under control. No balls to the wall race efforts here... (save that for some gutsy V02max workouts 2.5-3 weeks out from your peak race). Its better to go too slow on these at this early in the season. You don't want to induce too much lactate into the system (read lactic acid, muscle "burn" and tying up, bad form, breathing hard enough that you can only say one syllable...perhaps 4 letter words). Best rule of thumb is to run at your current fitness level...not 30:40 goal shape or whatever you want in 2 months. These aren't the kinds of workouts you force the issue in. In other, more race-specific (5k-10k) pace sessions you could practice goal pace to program your legs and build economy. You just don't want to be running tempos way over your head and taxing yourself more than you should. I'd say most young guys in college do this.

Steady state is a myth. Remember you are training to produce and maintain power. These tempo runs are as much or more about working your legs as working your cardiovascular system.

If you havent been doing tempo runs, try a few weeks of adding in 10 miles somewhat hard overdistance at 545-6 pace, a couple of times/week. You may have to back off on your interval work.

You can also decide to just pile up more ~5:30 miles, out on a nice trail, hitting mile reps on 7'. That way you can go 10 faster miles with less stress, and do more of the leg work. Just an option. You dont need continuous pressure to get adaptation. And your pacing can vary. To say there is one magic tempo pace is silly.

When push comes to shove, it is hard to beat a strong 4-5 mile tempo, hard to very hard RPE after mile 1, down around 5:20 or so working down to <26 8k as you can. But these are more intensive and so you might actually be limiting yourself a bit, getting forced into more recovery running. You can actually do more work at higher quality with the cruising intervals, say 600m 1:55 on 3', ~230-235 800m on 4', 1200m 4' on 5' etc, or even working in sets (which also allows for some longer reps). Try out various options and see what you enjoy and benefit from.

Try to keep yourself out of a corner where you your tempo capability far outweighs your middle distance speed. If you find your tempo capability not transferring down to your 1500/3k performances, you need speed work at <5k speed minimum. No matter how strong you get on the tempo side, you need ~830 3k speed to make a good run at <30.