But my gist is a bit disappointed different. Imagine being effeminate and not even knowing what effeminate is because you're just living
A lot of people can claim that gender dysphoria is a mental Illness because it's a great capstone... but what about those who think and live normally until they are forced into fa---- status unwarranted ?
What's your answer?
In a perfect world someone that is effeminate just embraces that. That is accepting who you are. If that person decides they need to take hormones and have surgery to fit in, they are just falling in to the conformity trap. Reinforcing strict gender stereotypes. Interestingly enough the idea of strict gender stereotypes is a new thing. Someone that in the past would be accepted as a tomboy is now told they need to take hormones to fit in. It is pretty broken.
Then blame society. I'm a quite strong 50 year old man. I'm not going to physically switch anything because I believe in my identity as it is. I fought to be me.
But if others switch because they feel they have to, it's also their empowerment.
The mental health profession uses a manual called the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) to categorize and catalog mental illnesses.
Gender disorder issues have been included for a very very long time.
The latest edition is the DSM-5 which came out in 2013. The term "gender dysphoria" was used for the first time in this edition because they apparently felt "dysphoria" was less hurtful than "disorder".
you guys act like treating someone like everyone else is some huge ask of society. 99% of trans people in sports are just trying to fit in with their peers but knuckleheads like you want to single them out and never let them forget that asking someone to say "they" is the biggest crime of freedom ever. Get over yourself. The world changes. Language changes. I've had hundreds of people in my life ask me to call them a different name (nickname, middle name, new name, married name, etc). I was actually pretty easy for me to adjust.
Are you so stupid and narrow-minded that a "they" or "he" or "she" confuses you?? That says more about you than the other person.
People always take crap when they are different. Short people, hairy people, ugly people. People suck. Life's never been easy or fair. The answer is trying to demand the entire world accept your feelings.
People don't just claim gender dysphoria is a mental illness it literally is a mental illness.
If you think everyone around you should use special pronouns for you that they don't need to use for the other 7+ billion people on earth you are not thinking and living normally.
No one cares how you identify any more than care how any other stranger identifies.
I'll also include that if you think gender dysphoria is about pronouns, you are nebulous purposely about what it really is.
People who truly have gender dysphoria would not likely describe it or ask for different treatment because they get different treatment based on just living.
It's not as simple as speaking in terms of alpha or beta because you can find different modicums of dysphoria regardless of sexual orientation.
If you think about life in a microscope, both men and women are arbitrarily judged on appearance, walk, talk, vocal timbre, vocal pitch, handshake, hairstyle, clothing style and overall choices of activity.
Within this is a "norm" that people decide is proper for a gender.
But most of your people who don't fit the mold aren't trying to be different. They've tried to conform but it doesn't fit.
People who support humanity understand this
Pronouns represent your desire to have the world affirm your identity. Do they not?
Humanity has operated with 2 genders for about 200,000 years now.
You should expect a little push back when in the last few years it's being claimed there are now infinite genders.
How do you feel about the people who identify as animals? There was a story this week about a school in Utah where the teachers were allowing students to identify as animals and literally have litter boxes in the bathrooms.
Do you think these people hurt or help you? Do you think they truly believe they are animals or do you think they are enjoying the attention? Or could they be mentally ill?
In a perfect world someone that is effeminate just embraces that. That is accepting who you are. If that person decides they need to take hormones and have surgery to fit in, they are just falling in to the conformity trap. Reinforcing strict gender stereotypes. Interestingly enough the idea of strict gender stereotypes is a new thing. Someone that in the past would be accepted as a tomboy is now told they need to take hormones to fit in. It is pretty broken.
Then blame society. I'm a quite strong 50 year old man. I'm not going to physically switch anything because I believe in my identity as it is. I fought to be me.
But if others switch because they feel they have to, it's also their empowerment.
Not really. If you feel you have to, that is the opposite of empowerment.
Hopefully this cycles around and becomes less of a thing. Perfectly normal women getting breast implants used to be a big thing, now not so much.
The mental health profession uses a manual called the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) to categorize and catalog mental illnesses.
Gender disorder issues have been included for a very very long time.
The latest edition is the DSM-5 which came out in 2013. The term "gender dysphoria" was used for the first time in this edition because they apparently felt "dysphoria" was less hurtful than "disorder".
People always take crap when they are different. Short people, hairy people, ugly people. People suck. Life's never been easy or fair. The answer is trying to demand the entire world accept your feelings.
People don't just claim gender dysphoria is a mental illness it literally is a mental illness.
If you think everyone around you should use special pronouns for you that they don't need to use for the other 7+ billion people on earth you are not thinking and living normally.
No one cares how you identify any more than they care how any other stranger identifies.
I've moved this thread to registration only as on a sensitive topic as I don't want trolls.
I am just seeing this thread now and don't get why people are criticizing me. I had nothing to do with the homepage but I couldn't disagree more with the OP.
You start your post by saying, "There are interesting and difficult questions about trans athletes in sports." Not for me. It's very simple. You should compete in the biological division you were born. End of story. We don't have a women's sports category because women feel like they are worse athletes than men - we have it because women are biologically different than men.
Someone else wrote that you are assigned sex at birth. That's not true. Your sex is factual and can be determined in utero and after death.
The second paragraph that the OP makes is one I want to address;
The OP wrote:
Most of these children are not "boys trying to game the system," which seems to be your editorial perspective (and DEFINITELY the New York Post's), but rather adolescents going through a life-changing transition who happen to, when they're not busy being bullied or killed in a hs bathroom, want to compete in sports. So rather than cheering on a some hs girls who are ostracizing another student because they're salty that they won't win their local track meet, do just a tiny bit better.
Ignoring the fact that we've never said they are trying to game the system (but the fact that people could game the system shows you how illogical it is to base sports categories on 'feelings'. An immature 18 year old can't enter the U-15 category because they feel young), the OP is clearly only caring with the feelings of the trans girl. I feel for her personally - it would be terrible to think you are in the wrong body (and it's my view we shouldnt even tell anyone that's a possibility. the body you are born with the bran you have is yours and can't be chanaged) but I don't get why her feelings over-ride everyone else's feelings.
As Martina Navratilova - a LGB icon whose views on this are the same at letsrun- so brilliantly wrote yesterday , "It’s all about the feelings of boys who identify as girls and the girls just have to deal with it…"
My question to the OP is simple - Why doesn't the trans person ever have to worry about all the cis people they are making feel uncomfortable as hell?
To me, we could solve this on a simple 1st grade math level. Do we want to make a single trans athlete - who at some point may transition back - uncomfortable or a slew of biological women?
Martina is retweeting a tweet that asks why don't the trans women have to "consider (the) girls’ mental anguish at being forced to compete against a boy or undress in front of a boy?"
I totally agree. Why are we only worried about the one trans athlete than the many more cis athletes who lose out every single time a trans athlete takes one of their spots.
One last thing. I don't get why you'd cancel your SC membership over this. You are allowed to have your opinion. I'm allowed to have mine. Do you only go to restaurants where the owner of the restaurant has the same political views as you? That's wild.
My best friend - a former HRC speechwwriter - and I used to always disagree on politics. But we respected our passionate belief in our ideas. Now we have found common ground on this trans issue. It's already causing real damage to her cis daugther who is in 2nd grade. Because she wears overalls, she has to constantly be asked in liberal DC if she's a boy. So sad and antiquated to think if you aren't wearing a dress in 2024, people ask you if you are trans.
No one is trying to ban the WV athlete from track. We just want to ban her from the biological women's division.
OP, give me a call. I swear I'm not some crazy deranged hater. I just don't get why people like yourself only care about the trans athletes and not the cis ones. Someone has to lose out here and from a biological standpoint, from a fairness standpoing and from a simple numbers standpoint, it needs to be the trans women athletes.
PS. I also think it's great to have disagreement. Nowadays, you never see varying viewpoints as described in the first post of this thread. A brillaint post I just read:
In the old days, if you wanted to discuss running, or aquariums, or the Mets, or whatever, you went to a specific forum: e.g. letsrun or fish-lovers.net or etc. There, you found dozens to thousands of people with a passion ab...
One could argue that youth sports should be treated differently than elite sport as inclusion maybe should trump fairness. But clearly the girls who stepped out of the ring don't agree and feel the male competitor in their event has an unfair advantage.
It is the state of West Virginia who is trying to treat youth sports differently from the elite sports. BPJ would be eligible to compete in the Olympics and the World Athletics Championships if she were good enough. (The 4th Circuit that rejected the state law made this point clear in pages 28-30 below.) All BPJ is asking for is to be treated exactly like Olympians.
I would also point out that one of the girls who boycotted shotput chose to compete in discus and finished 7th. Two other girls from the same school finished 1st and 3rd in discus. (BPJ was 2nd.) Does BPJ have "unfair advantage" in shotput but not in discus? Was the 7th place finisher in discus pressured to boycott shotput against her wishes? Why is it okay to compete against BPJ in discus, but not in shotput?
The mental health profession uses a manual called the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) to categorize and catalog mental illnesses.
Gender disorder issues have been included for a very very long time.
The latest edition is the DSM-5 which came out in 2013. The term "gender dysphoria" was used for the first time in this edition because they apparently felt "dysphoria" was less hurtful than "disorder".
2013 is eleven years ago. This is more recent. (2019)
Gender incongruence has been moved out of the “Mental and behavioural disorders” chapter and into the new “Conditions related to sexual health” chapter. This reflects current knowledge that trans-related and gender diverse identities are not conditions of mental ill-health, and that classifying them as such can cause enormous stigma.
Yes, but their peers are trans, so that’s who they should compete against.
what’s next…someone will cheat the system, get a handicap sticker, and compete in the Special Olympics, and you buy in hook line n sinker?
Let's start with your own opinion.
Not granpappy and his South.
Not Daddy and his South
Not Mama and Meemaw.
What do you think as an American regardless of heritage, religion or ancestry?
I own all my opinions. no clue where you are coming from. Bunch of jibberish. as an American, I believe the second amendment is the greatest law ever written and you are physically born with what God gave you to work with
I agree that the vitriol aimed at trans people is sad and I don't have a problem with trans kids in low level sports,
There needs to be separate biological male/female categories at the level of "competitive sport" however we define that. Lia Ts of the world are making a mockery of women's sports.
I also share your dismay at how this website enables fringe lunatics on many topics including trans hate.
Wow, that's a shockingly rational and reasonable comment, by LR MB standards. I applaud you, but wonder if you're in the wrong place.
The mental health profession uses a manual called the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) to categorize and catalog mental illnesses.
Gender disorder issues have been included for a very very long time.
The latest edition is the DSM-5 which came out in 2013. The term "gender dysphoria" was used for the first time in this edition because they apparently felt "dysphoria" was less hurtful than "disorder".
2013 is eleven years ago. This is more recent. (2019)
Gender incongruence has been moved out of the “Mental and behavioural disorders” chapter and into the new “Conditions related to sexual health” chapter. This reflects current knowledge that trans-related and gender diverse identities are not conditions of mental ill-health, and that classifying them as such can cause enormous stigma.
And one other thing. I think it's good that our homepage guy praised the girls that boycotted. How amazing is it that a handful of middle-schoolers in West Virginia have more common sense and guts than all the swimmers in the NCAA?
Now admittedly it may be a little easier to have guts in WV than the rest of the world as the trans activists go after you hard. The fact that somehow feminist icons like Martina Navratilova and JK Rowling were close to gettting cancelled on this is really crazy, but I guess not surprising as biological men have always been threatened by outspoken women throughout humanity.
There are interesting and difficult questions about trans athletes in sports, and then there is whatever Letsrun posted this morning about a 15-year-old trans child trying to compete in her local track meet. As an initial matter, it doesn't take moral courage to single out a trans child trying to compete in her school track meet ("props to these middle school girls"). It's worse to highlight a NY Post article excoriating a trans CHILD for committing the crime of participating in sports.
Most of these children are not "boys trying to game the system," which seems to be your editorial perspective (and DEFINITELY the New York Post's), but rather adolescents going through a life-changing transition who happen to, when they're not busy being bullied or killed in a hs bathroom, want to compete in sports. So rather than cheering on a some hs girls who are ostracizing another student because they're salty that they won't win their local track meet, do just a tiny bit better.
Anyway, I canceled my Supporter's Club subscription. Before everyone chimes in, yes I know you don't care. But I wanted to articulate why in the mild hopes that RoJo/WeJo/Gault learn to bring a bit more sophistication and empathy to their analysis. Life isn't just who won a middle school shotput competition. And in your eagerness to display how Seriously You Take Sports, you are edging into a world of anti-trans hate that will debase you, and the integrity of your outfit.
Wejo, your post is great and I agree, but I want to point out the germ of an inconsistency here. By choosing to define gender, is something separate from sex, we continually open the door for people to decide they are something different, and ultimately force everyone else to go along with that “reality.”
Besides, it is inconsistent and ultimately untenable to tell people that their gender can be whatever they want, and the world should go along, but in the athletic world sex is all that matters. It’s giving people two different messages, and it won’t hold up.
Solution is regard people is either men or women for life.
