Since joining Bowerman in June 2023 his 5K PR has gone from 13:22 to 13:09 and his 10K PR has gone down from 27:40 to 27:33. I believe these are both UK U23 records even though he didn’t come close to winning either race.
Is this progression underwhelming considering the improvement by guys like Nico, Habtom Samuel and Blanks, or do you still consider this a solid progression?
Since joining Bowerman in June 2023 his 5K PR has gone from 13:22 to 13:09 and his 10K PR has gone down from 27:40 to 27:33. I believe these are both UK U23 records even though he didn’t come close to winning either race.
Is this progression underwhelming considering the improvement by guys like Nico, Habtom Samuel and Blanks, or do you still consider this a solid progression?
Was going to post something about Hicks in another thread, but here is most appropriate.
Simple answer: solid progression.
Charlie, Evan and Duncan all tested positive for COVID following their BU races back in January and had to miss approx 10 days of training.
Tonight, Charlie got a 7 sec pr, Evan ran a non-competitive 3:40 which may be ok for him at this point, and Duncan didn't even enter the meet.
Like Joe Klecker -- who has now admitted to recent training issues -- pretty much believe both had their build-up to The TEN compromised by their recent problems and thus fell off pretty hard after 8k.
Joe was pretty happy with tonight's results. Have to believe Charlie feels the same.
The downside, however, is that w/o the 10k Q and placing so low with an average time, Hicks won't get the WA ranking points he wanted -- while compatriot Patrick Dever did. So, will be quite difficult for Charlie to get to Paris via the 10k route.
However, he only needs to shave off 5 secs to get the 5k Q, so suspect we will see him take that route later this outdoor season.
Big picture: Charlie's been training under Jerry since August-September with no injuries, just that one small COVID hiccup, and still has that infectious upbeat attitude Stanford fans know so well. He's on the right path. Just appears that this Olympics year is coming at him a year too soon.
Since joining Bowerman in June 2023 his 5K PR has gone from 13:22 to 13:09 and his 10K PR has gone down from 27:40 to 27:33. I believe these are both UK U23 records even though he didn’t come close to winning either race.
Is this progression underwhelming considering the improvement by guys like Nico, Habtom Samuel and Blanks, or do you still consider this a solid progression?
Was going to post something about Hicks in another thread, but here is most appropriate.
Simple answer: solid progression.
Charlie, Evan and Duncan all tested positive for COVID following their BU races back in January and had to miss approx 10 days of training.
Tonight, Charlie got a 7 sec pr, Evan ran a non-competitive 3:40 which may be ok for him at this point, and Duncan didn't even enter the meet.
Like Joe Klecker -- who has now admitted to recent training issues -- pretty much believe both had their build-up to The TEN compromised by their recent problems and thus fell off pretty hard after 8k.
Joe was pretty happy with tonight's results. Have to believe Charlie feels the same.
The downside, however, is that w/o the 10k Q and placing so low with an average time, Hicks won't get the WA ranking points he wanted -- while compatriot Patrick Dever did. So, will be quite difficult for Charlie to get to Paris via the 10k route.
However, he only needs to shave off 5 secs to get the 5k Q, so suspect we will see him take that route later this outdoor season.
Big picture: Charlie's been training under Jerry since August-September with no injuries, just that one small COVID hiccup, and still has that infectious upbeat attitude Stanford fans know so well. He's on the right path. Just appears that this Olympics year is coming at him a year too soon.
This is an unreasonably reasonable assessment for this message board. Well done.
I know super spikes, but as a lifelong distance fan, I think we are underestimating the achievement of running 27:33. That kind of time by a non-African was rare in the recent past. Imagine running that time to win the slow heat in 2013 !?! Drew Hunter…..
Taking the 5K route will be very difficult even if he does manage to get the standard. Mills and Atkin seem to be the clear favourites at the British trials after going sub-13 recently. Patrick Dever also seems to be in great shape after running 27:08 last night at the Ten, not to mention the fact that him and Jack Rowe finished 5 seconds ahead of Hicks in that BU 5K.
Charles seems to have a higher ceiling than both Dever and Rowe, but like you said, the Olympics may just be too soon for him. I suspect he’ll have much more success trying to qualify for the World Championships in 2025 after having another year’s worth of training with Jerry under his belt.
Taking the 5K route will be very difficult even if he does manage to get the standard. Mills and Atkin seem to be the clear favourites at the British trials after going sub-13 recently. Patrick Dever also seems to be in great shape after running 27:08 last night at the Ten, not to mention the fact that him and Jack Rowe finished 5 seconds ahead of Hicks in that BU 5K.
Charles seems to have a higher ceiling than both Dever and Rowe, but like you said, the Olympics may just be too soon for him. I suspect he’ll have much more success trying to qualify for the World Championships in 2025 after having another year’s worth of training with Jerry under his belt.
Yep. Spot on.
We know about GBR's milers -- five or so world class guys competing for three Oly spots.
But its 5k guys have not-so-quietly revived that event since the days of Ian Stewart & David Moorcroft, then more recently, Mo Farah. Even if Charlie got under 13:05 he's still got more experienced guys to compete against with times equal or faster than his.
So, maybe we will see Charlie in another 10k soon. If that's the case, ON's Night of the 10k PBs in Parliament Hill/London on May 18th would be the logical choice. Paul Chelimo got down to 27:12 in that race last year. So reaching 27-flat appears possible.
Since joining Bowerman in June 2023 his 5K PR has gone from 13:22 to 13:09 and his 10K PR has gone down from 27:40 to 27:33. I believe these are both UK U23 records even though he didn’t come close to winning either race.
Is this progression underwhelming considering the improvement by guys like Nico, Habtom Samuel and Blanks, or do you still consider this a solid progression?
Comparing the last 9 months for Hicks with the last 9 months for Nico Young, Habtom Samuel, or Graham Blanks is like comparing apples to oranges. Why? Change. Hicks changed coaches, training groups, training style, etc. The others did not.
Sometimes those sorts of changes result in immediate jumps, especially when the changes tend to make an athlete sharper and more race-prep oriented. Example: when Ritz switched from Hudson (who focused a lot on Ritz's development) to Salazar (who was much more about sharpness and race-prep), he had an immediate jump in performance.
Sometimes those sorts of changes are still for the best in the long term, but the progress isn't as immediate. From what we know about BTC, the focus for new athletes isn't necessarily about immediate performance jumps. They tend to emphasize adjusting to the training program, and that program tends to be higher global and/or workout volume and less racing. It seems to pay off for a lot of their athletes eventually, but maybe not right away.
Within that context, Hicks' progression seems pretty solid. A year from now, if he's at the same level he is now, it might be a different conversation.
Since joining Bowerman in June 2023 his 5K PR has gone from 13:22 to 13:09 and his 10K PR has gone down from 27:40 to 27:33. I believe these are both UK U23 records even though he didn’t come close to winning either race.
Is this progression underwhelming considering the improvement by guys like Nico, Habtom Samuel and Blanks, or do you still consider this a solid progression?
Takes at least 1-2 seasons to get used to BTC training. Teare left too early.
Fan Out West, out of curiosity, what's with "Charlie"? I was told by a Stanford runner a couple of years ago that he goes by "Charles". Do you know otherwise or just making an assumption?
Since joining Bowerman in June 2023 his 5K PR has gone from 13:22 to 13:09 and his 10K PR has gone down from 27:40 to 27:33. I believe these are both UK U23 records even though he didn’t come close to winning either race.
Is this progression underwhelming considering the improvement by guys like Nico, Habtom Samuel and Blanks, or do you still consider this a solid progression?
You're making judgements less than a year after a person turns pro? Lol
Since joining Bowerman in June 2023 his 5K PR has gone from 13:22 to 13:09 and his 10K PR has gone down from 27:40 to 27:33. I believe these are both UK U23 records even though he didn’t come close to winning either race.
Is this progression underwhelming considering the improvement by guys like Nico, Habtom Samuel and Blanks, or do you still consider this a solid progression?
You're making judgements less than a year after a person turns pro? Lol
Habtom Samuel is a freshman at UNM, so he changed coaches just six months ago. Charles Hicks went pro June 30, 2023, so he has been with his new coach longer than Samuel. His new coach isn't doing all that well with him at the moment, because while he has a pr by 13 seconds at 5000m and 7 seconds at 10000m this year, he was already in that kind of shape arguably when he won NCAA xc and Nico Young has gone way forward since Hicks easily went by him at the end of the OK State course and Hicks has fallen way behind him. Graham Blanks was not competitive with Hicks in NCAA xc in 2022 or before that but he ran 13:03 this year after winning xc in 2023. In other words, things aren't working out great at this point from the standpoint of the competition or for the reason he signed with BTC over a year out from the Olympics, to make the British Olympic team. He still has three or more months to make it, so there is hope but the early returns are not what you'd hope for. I also wonder from the last video he posted whether the personal fit is right with the current group, aside from Knight.
Takes at least 1-2 seasons to get used to BTC training. Teare left too early.
While I agree with the take on the adjustment period I never thought Bowerman was a good fit for Cooper. Not that that’s what this thread is even about but still.
Since joining Bowerman in June 2023 his 5K PR has gone from 13:22 to 13:09 and his 10K PR has gone down from 27:40 to 27:33. I believe these are both UK U23 records even though he didn’t come close to winning either race.
Is this progression underwhelming considering the improvement by guys like Nico, Habtom Samuel and Blanks, or do you still consider this a solid progression?
Comparing the last 9 months for Hicks with the last 9 months for Nico Young, Habtom Samuel, or Graham Blanks is like comparing apples to oranges. Why? Change. Hicks changed coaches, training groups, training style, etc. The others did not.
Sometimes those sorts of changes result in immediate jumps, especially when the changes tend to make an athlete sharper and more race-prep oriented. Example: when Ritz switched from Hudson (who focused a lot on Ritz's development) to Salazar (who was much more about sharpness and race-prep), he had an immediate jump in performance.
Sometimes those sorts of changes are still for the best in the long term, but the progress isn't as immediate. From what we know about BTC, the focus for new athletes isn't necessarily about immediate performance jumps. They tend to emphasize adjusting to the training program, and that program tends to be higher global and/or workout volume and less racing. It seems to pay off for a lot of their athletes eventually, but maybe not right away.
Within that context, Hicks' progression seems pretty solid. A year from now, if he's at the same level he is now, it might be a different conversation.
Nico should not leave Mike Smith for go run for Jerry.
Takes at least 1-2 seasons to get used to BTC training. Teare left too early.
I was cheerleading Teare leaving BTC, and I stand by it. It seems popular opinion here shifts completely based on Teare's last race more than with other athletes. When he ran the 5k at USAs, people said he was a 1500 guy. The next year, he's US champ, gets injured, goes to BTC, and everyone's excited because he's a 5k guy. After a couple races, obviously BTC was a bad fit for him, he's a 1500 guy, and BTC is a 3k/5k/10k group. After going back to Thomas, everyone's excited because he lost his kick at BTC, he wins US XC, but misses the indoor team by .2 (after going out in the heats last year), and he left BTC too early.
For Hicks, I think BTC is gonna work out well. If he's running 27:33 after getting sick, and he's stayed healthy at Bowerman so far, I think we'll see good things from him.
Think about it. Charles Hicks covered every move that Nico and Drew Bosley made at NCAA's in 2022 and had plenty in reserve to not only drop Drew but drop Nico. Drew Bosley the next season became the NCAA 3k record holder. Graham Blanks, now a 13:03 runner and NCAA xc champ, was nowhere near him at NCAA xc in 2022. This year, Nico became the NCAA 5000m and 10000m record holder. Charles Hicks joined a pro group with much better training partners and frequent access to high altitude training and he is much slower than Nico at 5000m and 10000m. Nico's a major contender for the U.S. Olympic spots at 5000m and especially 10000m. Charles Hicks, whom I am a big fan of, does not have a qualifying time and isn't even close to one at 10000m, and right now is far from grabbing an easier spot with the UK team (considerably easier to make their 5000m and 10000m teams than the U.S. teams).
How can anyone honestly say that BTC has worked out well for him at this point?
Taking the 5K route will be very difficult even if he does manage to get the standard. Mills and Atkin seem to be the clear favourites at the British trials after going sub-13 recently. Patrick Dever also seems to be in great shape after running 27:08 last night at the Ten, not to mention the fact that him and Jack Rowe finished 5 seconds ahead of Hicks in that BU 5K.
Charles seems to have a higher ceiling than both Dever and Rowe, but like you said, the Olympics may just be too soon for him. I suspect he’ll have much more success trying to qualify for the World Championships in 2025 after having another year’s worth of training with Jerry under his belt.
Yep. Spot on.
We know about GBR's milers -- five or so world class guys competing for three Oly spots.
But its 5k guys have not-so-quietly revived that event since the days of Ian Stewart & David Moorcroft, then more recently, Mo Farah. Even if Charlie got under 13:05 he's still got more experienced guys to compete against with times equal or faster than his.
So, maybe we will see Charlie in another 10k soon. If that's the case, ON's Night of the 10k PBs in Parliament Hill/London on May 18th would be the logical choice. Paul Chelimo got down to 27:12 in that race last year. So reaching 27-flat appears possible.
He shouldn't rule out the 5k, if he can get the standard before the British trials. The 5k always goes very slow at the trials so it will be a kicker's race. If Mills is in it, he'll win, but I can see Hicks out-kicking the rest of the field, though Dever seems to have found some good form this year so it might be tight with him. Atkin is flaky as hell so who knows what he'll do. So right now, I'd say Mills and Dever are favourites. James West could complicate matters. He's a great championship racer and I can see him winning a slow race, but he is still way off the standard so won't be selected.
His new coach isn't doing all that well with him at the moment, because while he has a pr by 13 seconds at 5000m and 7 seconds at 10000m this year, he was already in that kind of shape arguably when he won NCAA xc and Nico Young has gone way forward since Hicks easily went by him at the end of the OK State course and Hicks has fallen way behind him. Graham Blanks was not competitive with Hicks in NCAA xc in 2022 or before that but he ran 13:03 this year after winning xc in 2023. In other words, things aren't working out great at this point from the standpoint of the competition or for the reason he signed with BTC over a year out from the Olympics, to make the British Olympic team.
Making a post hoc comparison between Hicks's progression and those of Young and Blanks is meaningless, because those are the two of his contemporaries who (we now know with the benefit of hindsight) have had the hugest breakthroughs. It's like saying "Sure, you got hired by a fantastic company with a six-figure starting salary and great prospects, but you're not really keeping up with that guy who won the lottery."
Summer 2019: graduated college and joined bowerman
Winter 19/20: injured first altitude camp
Spring 2020: Jerry breaks Bowerman up into three person pods for Covid and he is putting a group with Mo and Lopez. Says he basically was just getting his ass handed to him every single day
Summer 2020: runs 13:11 for about a 20 sec 5k pr
Spring 2021: runs 27:10 and 13:02
Olympics 2021: shockingly is with the leaders at the bell, comes in 5th in the 10K and beats mo
2022: The year of Grant Fisher
Obviously Grant is an incredible talent. And he was undertrained at Stanford. (he talked about this on his podcast) And Covid was a factor as well.
I’m not trying by to say Charles is as good or will be as good as him. I’m just pointing out that even Grant Fisher had a decently adjustment period. I am thinking that by Worlds 2025 will be a better assessment of Charles integration with BTC.
Takes at least 1-2 seasons to get used to BTC training. Teare left too early.
I was cheerleading Teare leaving BTC, and I stand by it. It seems popular opinion here shifts completely based on Teare's last race more than with other athletes. When he ran the 5k at USAs, people said he was a 1500 guy. The next year, he's US champ, gets injured, goes to BTC, and everyone's excited because he's a 5k guy. After a couple races, obviously BTC was a bad fit for him, he's a 1500 guy, and BTC is a 3k/5k/10k group. After going back to Thomas, everyone's excited because he lost his kick at BTC, he wins US XC, but misses the indoor team by .2 (after going out in the heats last year), and he left BTC too early.
For Hicks, I think BTC is gonna work out well. If he's running 27:33 after getting sick, and he's stayed healthy at Bowerman so far, I think we'll see good things from him.
Training is not that precise, and unless someone runs the steeple, no one focuses on 3000m. If a 1500/5000m guy is at peak fitness for 3000m, he’s also ready to run PRs at 1500 and 5000m.
People might lose some fitness but they don’t lose a kick.