Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

How much slower did you do your LR with the new method? I've noticed even in the short time I've done it my EZ HR has dropped significantly. Whereas I was running 10-11min. miles at 125-130 now I can get that down to low 10s to even mid-9s at 130-135. If I get up to 140 I'm in the low 9s. And that's only after three weeks of sub-thresh workouts (2-3 singles a week, 1 LR [either all EZ or some EZ and fast finish]).

Wow what a thread! Thankful that when searching for the Norwegian model for amateurs via Google this thread came up!

Just finished it , feel like a few people that have mentioned that I have read a really englightening training book. love the idea mentioned of a podcast with sirpoc out of this that came up also! Would make it very linear.

Inspired by so many success stories. You don't often see so many people actually buying into something but then also feeding back how it went for them, tweaks etc so it's simply an awesome thread. I'm planning to try this method from now until the end of 2024, will try and give my feedback as I go. Hopefully this thread stays niche! Feel like I can one up on my master's rivals by keeping this to myself! I've been running 30+ years and honestly reading this all has been like a lightbulb moment for me.

Has anyone tried doing threshold everyday other day for an extended period of time? I ask this because, under this method, you usually take two days after the third session.

Example:

Mon: SubT

Tues: E

Weds: SubT

Thurs: E

Fri: SubT

Sat: E

Sun: SubT

Noticed sirpoc seems to have a really high cadence … 190+ spm usually even on easy runs. Maybe this is why he doesn’t need strides?

Sorry. Just saw this. Yeah, truly nothing is promised. I hope you enjoy your training and racing.

I really think you have a fantastic shot at well, well below a 3:20 if you can train consistently and decide to tackle a full marathon again, since I’m about 99% confident that you would’ve been at 3:15 or a little below with a well-paced race on your PR day, and given what you posted last year about your training, it looked like you were primed for about 3:20 last fall. It’s a shame that you had the race go less than perfectly with some calf cramps and the unplanned stop, especially because of the really nice marathon weather and the good job the pacer(s) did for that 3:20 group that day.

But it looks like you did a great job of making the best of it and soldiering on well. That’s how marathoning goes sometimes, though. You can run only so many, so it can turn into a case of training for months and relying on the absence of bad luck on race day. And now it seems like you’re doing some smart training on the path to good things ahead. Good luck!

Thank you! One mistake I made last year was trying to put all my training eggs in the marathon basket. Am doing other races this year to break it up--and that will help.

The bathroom stop was not a big deal in hindsight, but I have no regrets. I had gone to El Vaquero the night before lol. But have never had problems before etc. I love that place.

The pacer did perfect pacing--he told me he came in at 3:19:58 despite the winds at times. When I got out of the bathroom I was behind the 3:30 group at mile 3, was able to catch them at mile 7 and then just paced evenly from there--1:42:50/1:42:54--that is as perfect as you can get. I closed a 7:05 at mile 25. During the race I saw it as a test to see if I could get stronger from 32k on...it was fun. Closed in 47 instead of 49-50 like I normally do the last 10k! No bonking due to taking SIX gels instead of 3-4 like in 2019, 2021 and 2022.

Tonight I saw what I could do with the sub-threshold principles and did 3x2 at current HMP by effort w/2m rest. HR was higher, of course, but it was a good pace checkup.

Legs tight on the first 2--7:35/7:35, but used the 2m rest to do more active stretching

Then the last 4 felt great--7:26/7:17 (rest) and 6:58/6:58

6 in 43:30.

Tinman calc has me at 1:40:32 or whatevs with that 43:30--I'll be happy if I'm under 1:40. 1:30 can wait until next year. 10k is probably around 45, 15k around 69-70.

In January I did 4 miles in 41 (!), I was that out of shape. My fault, no excuses. I'll have to do this year-round going forward and I see that...

Surely this must be a mistake? This cannot be right if he really is doing easy runs at 7:30+ per mile.

I also think maybe this mistake. Either that or he has so poor form he needs to be teach to run properly with more efficient stride. Running that cadence for so slow is very bad idea. I would re coach new technique.

No mistake. He does run with such a high turnover, could be an ingrained neuromuscular pattern from all the cycling he did at 90-100 rpm.

I noticed that my easy cycling cadence mimics my easy running cadence. These things carry over.

There a reason Daniels wrote so much on. cadence, because he is the gold standard correct on this. There is too slow, as he discussed in running forumulas. But sorry this is just ridiculous. What is sirpoc cadence when racing? The numbers quoted for easy running are ridiculous. I am a 17 min guy and 190 is about standard FOR RACING. I am very lucky as coaches tell me I have such a good looking and smooth stride that looks almost perfect. Coaching could fix this, but it would prevent problems further down the line for him with such a silly cadence.

I always wondered if I would hypothetically prefer having my "good-looking" stride and remain around just sub 17 minutes, or wake up with "bad-looking" stride and be LEVELS faster, like sirpoc is at sub 16 at 40 years of age (not that I mean his stride is bad, I'm just using him as a reference for fast here).

Sure, his cadence is above average, but it is working for him. He doesn't get any overuse injuries, so it means that it is efficient for his body.

What's silly is making absolute statements without knowing context.

Yes, I recall checking how that pacer was and noticed that he not only had a pretty good first and second half split (Only hot by 3s/mi in the first half), he also had pretty even grade-adjusted mile splits throughout. Since he’d need to pace 1:40 half runners too, he wouldn’t be able to do anything like a negative split, so it’s hard to get much better even pacing than that.

On that workout: nice job, but maybe I’m missing something about how you’re calculating pace with Tinman. As I understand it, if you ran half marathon pace/effort, then that would be your half marathon pace, which would give you something like 1:36-1:37 half shape now. I see above 1:40:30 for the Tinman calculator only from that time for a 6-mile tapered, all-out race, which is not what I think you did. So you might be in better shape than you thought yesterday. Or maybe I’m missing something.

Thanks, I'm kinda slow at times. I wanted to be in 1:30 shape but I'm not there yet. You definitely know your Cbus running scene--the pacer is a nice guy too and very helpful to new runners. Tight legs gave me 7:35. I do think I'll start off the first few miles at 7:35-7:40 to ease into it versus going hard from the gun. I like trying these as progression runs--I did a 1:37 in heat at Grandview last year, then had to do Irish dancing later that day so was a bit conservative.

I haven't tapered but will do so 10 days out (4/17). I have found a 2-week taper is a bit too long.

Love the threshold training--it's always neat learning new methods. I'd never heard of it until I found this thread. 96 pages and still going strong...sirpoc is amazing too.

I actually agree. I had a coach at a masters track meet tell me I look great and striding like knife through butter, but I'm bang average as a low 18 runner . I would happily be sped up and look a bit silly at the cadences listed, but run a 15. Ridiculous statement from the dude who would get lapped by sirpoc almost then come say what he needs.

Obviously I am repeating previous sentiments, but this might be THE thread for the hobby jogger. I'm so glad I committed and went the whole way.

A mixture of incredible information presented in a folllowable way and really cool to back date originally but then follow in real time almost sirpoc progress since really diving head first into this training. Many many other fantastic posters as well. It's kinda of cool LRC can play nice sometimes. That's why you know this thread is one of the ones that'll still be linked in a read this, kind of way in 10+ years time.

If sirpoc ever sees this, I would greatly appreciate if he could post the easy run and workout paces he was running using this approach when he was in the 18:4x-18:5x range. Right now he just went sub 16 and does workouts in the 5:20-5:40/mile range (which is faster than my mile PB), so seeing some of the slower workout paces would be a little reassuring I guess for a runner that is nowhere close to that fast right now.

I started following LRC around 2001-2002? Right after it started. It is very rare to get a thread where members don't piss on each other and actually want to help each other out. I just follow the threads I need and ignore the rest!

If my 5k is 5:50 pace (18:00), is 6x5 minutes at 6:15 about right or is it too fast?

Don't want to speak for the dude, but if you go back through everything, clearly he has always just been in the ranges he said, no matter what his current level. I think the guy Hard2Find maybe it was made a chart or spreadsheet? Just follow that. For example, sirpoc for 1k/3 min repeats repeats has always done them around 12-15k pace, at current fitness. So guide still stands test of time. Same for longer ones. 3k/12 min repeats around 25-30k pace, at current fitness. The actual pace is all dependent on CURRENT fitness. You need to know this or this system isn't very practical for you.