Another run across America underway - is it legit? Boots currently on the ground

couldn't be bothered to make this point as i'm obviously a pseudonymous nobody but i've also had activities where the wrist hrm didn't work, including a run of high intensity bike rides that would show ~110bpm for the duration.

will c's assertion that he's never seen this happen before means he either hasn't seen Crapgame's post or he's ignoring it. will?

personally i'm staying happily on the fence. balenger and goodge reacted like idiots to being questioned so they deserve no sympathy; cockerell seems all too convinced it's a fraud and having been abused is unlikely to want to change his mind but may end up regretting being so cocksure.

holding pattern where nothing develops until goodge actually has a few difficulties out on the road now i suspect

There is a difference between a watch feels against your wrist during a marathon or long run than it does after exercising for 12 hours a day for days and weeks straight. He may be moving that thing around when it irritates. But when you know someone is obsessed about your HR then you tighten it up and suck up the irritation.

I think you've stumbled on an issue - "according to willvlc's post' - I've just had a look and pretty much every run is a (significant) positive split for the day (so he's slower in afternoon as one might expect). I'd advise anyone to carry out their own analysis as well as disputing willvlc reliance on HR I actually think that some of analysis isn't spot on either.

Walking and lots (excessive) sweat/dried salt on the wrist are sending wrist HR dodgy is another guess here.

I agree with this post.

I'm not saying I agree with Goodge reaction but if you weren't cheating and accused of it (and tired physically and emotionally) then it could be understood. He's an attack on your character and integrity so I can understand some people getting irrationality upset of it.

To take a step back W.Goodge is raising alot of money for charity and I think that has to be applauded. Accusations of wire fraud and bit mute as even if were to be cheating noone is asking for their money back.

Whilst I am of the opinion that the guy is a massive knob it would
appear as though his Garmin 245 is temperamental. If you find him on
Garmin connect (which can provide some different data) and check out his run from March 17th his pace and heart
rate are completely flat line with no variation. It's not a race or part
of an event so why would he fudge the data here?

what you're saying makes some sense for sure but is also part of the reason why will c (and others) are suspicious. every keen distance runner who wears a modern running watch understands that wrist hrm need to be fairly tight and that they can fail to give proper data if not. so if a bloke asked what was going on with my heart rate data, it stands to reason that you'd say: oh, i was loosening my watch when i got hot. and then either tighten it or switch off the hrm. instead they decided to respond with name calling and whining.

yep, decent chance he's out there running this thing for real, but he's a daft sod to not understand that he'd invite a bit of scrutiny considering his background and so on. and balenger is meant to be the wizened expert runner here, no reason at all for him to have flown off the handle like a child.

No, as unreasonable as it gets. We're talking about 2,400kms of this nonsense in a deeply cynical and calculated manner. ie, the HR working perfectly at specific and convenient times at the 48/30, but never otherwise. 10 clean HRs out of 48, ffs.

I hate wearing a watch that's loose and slipping and sliding up my wrist. First thing I firm up. I also hate it too tight, of course he wouldn't do that.

And for him not to give a toss that he's not filing any HR shows an acute lack of intellectual curiosity - especially in an event like this. I'd love to know that my HR is coming down, or if it's going up, to look out for my health. And I'd wonder if I was getting fitter and handling the event. Molinaro at Jogle was all over 165s at the end of that day 9... pretty scary, she knew she was right on her limit. And WG ran, you guessed it, 105-115s for the same stretch, and he destroyed her by 8 mins for the 15k. A total novice vs a GB 100k International who had come top 10 at Comrades. But I know, I know, maybe he's just amazingly gifted.

He cares a lot about HR. When him and Grice were ripping out each other's kidneys he noticed he was getting into the red zone and asked for them to slow down and said he wanted to "remain green", which I expect means sub 140. No lower - they were doing 10min miling under a baking sun and Grice was in the 150s with a 167 spike. But I know - Charlie's only in 1:46 800 shape, so not as fit as he once was.

We can bicker back and forth about heart rate sensitivity of watches. But the logical thing to do is to offer realistic theories on how he could be cheating while at the same time uploading strava activities each day that look totally legit. There is a lot of detail and elevation that would need to be fudged to produce fake uploads. If it was even possible to do so. A monumental task.

As far as I can tell the only way he can be cheating is by having some of his crew taking shifts using his watch. This would explain how his runs have no cardiac drift. Robbie could jump in and shuffle at 13-14 minute miles for 10-15 miles at 110-120 BPM.

Time could be better spent checking the crews past races to see if they match this transcon race.

The more logical thing to do would be to get boots on the ground.

I dont doubt Willvlc and some of the stuff that Goodge is doing is massively suspect (besides the debate over wrist HR), but at present we have an internet message board going round in circles about the accuracy of wrist HR. The criticism is easy to dismiss as some idiots online.

We need boots on the ground, willing to ignore to apparent "code of conduct" needed to be running with Goodge. Show up to run, show up on a bike, show up on whatever, but make sure Goodge realises that around every bend someone could be waiting to spend 5 minutes or 5 hours with him.

This is where you lost any credibility with me. It is hard to support the rants of someone this close minded. I don't know whether he is cheating or not but I will not allow myself to go off like you have without even considering that there may be a credible explanation.

You were wrong about HR monitors and maybe, just maybe, you are wrong about this guy's ability to walk/jog 50 miles a day for a few weeks. Maybe?

Yes! I will start a new thread to recruit. Somebody needs to call Laz and get him out to Colorado.

I voiced this concern a while back, but I’m effectively playing devil’s advocate.

As I said in my initial post, I knew Will some years back, and from what I knew of him he was a nice guy - a good dude. Certainly not the type to cheat given the circumstances surrounding this.

But his camp need to address the discrepancies, if they indeed exist & they’re chasing a record.

So what I can say (beyond reasonable doubt) is that it's not Robbie as the watch mule.

Robbie's cadence at those paces is why lower than Wills. What (some of us) may have missed is the running cadence is pretty locked on at 176-180, so if it's a watch mule they have a similar running cadence to Will. Robbie's is less than 170 at that pace from his Strava. (And let's be honest someone has taken his watch and then had the foresight to mimic his cadence but not think of HR).

The fact Robbie hasn't done any watch muling probably adds weight that noone at all has.

Good point.

I have noticed that 176-180 cadence. Frankly that is very unique. Running high cadence with a slow pace is a talent that most people do not have.

Just to add this. W.Goodge comes across a macho testorone fueled guy but people who've met him seem to say he's a decent guy (which I know cheats can be nice people but were dealing in judgement calls here).

One final thing to note is 50 miles a day isn't elite super human at all. I'm going to put it out there, I recon with right prep I could comfortably do it with a support crew. Last year I averaged 20(ish) miles a day (with some days 30 odd) whilst holding down a full time job in my marathon block. 50 miles a day at 12min/mile with a support crew let's be honest it's really impressive but no need to compare too Carla or Dan's name into this as their achievements are waaay harder.

In fact does anyone want organise a trip and do it with me?

For purpose of Willvlc you have to wear a tracker, two watches and HR strap.

Agreed. Great form.

I'm down at 155 at that pace, heel striking and over reaching. Form at half marathon pace is around that buts when I'm motoring I finely stop overreaching so much.

I had a ridiculously high cadence after a couple days into my first transcon (the one for the record) since legs get tight and you have limited leg mobility.

I’m extremely skeptical that there is any intentional cheating going on. He’s used all sorts of hardware to track his runs on Strava, so from what I can tell there’s zero pattern, and until Will shows us his analysis, he’s just shouting into the wind. Like I said, 50 miles a day isn’t really elite. There’s just a very small n-size of people that do this stuff. With competent training, I would compare it to being a 3:10-3:25 marathoner.

Only thing worth investigating is day 15 end point versus day 16 start.

considering your experience and even handed takes, i'm well inclined to believe he's run what he's posted on this (athletically unremarkable) trip.

and yet i'll probably find myself tuned in throughout now seeing as i'd love a bit of schadenfreude after all the unnecessary cockiness and bickering... hang on... have i been played? is will c in on this whole thing, the agent provocateur that's helping boost traffic?

My "evidence" is that thousands of K since 2019 have had the same modus operandi: 6:30ks in 145 early in the day, 6:20ks in 110 later on. Or much more extreme examples. And no-one thinks that 150bpm for the first two days at Jogle in 2019, followed by a 103 then and 88 is odd. It's just dismissed as a tech fail. Well, I do think it's very odd, and then it continued like this to the present day, but that's where we can agree to differ.

If you look at his strava for this challenge alone you will find 500 examples of this totally bonkers variance.

And days 3-12 were at around 110bpm after a 130-5 on the first couple. When I raised this with them, they went straight back up to 135s. But all LR give me is "tech fail".

If someone has found another example of 100k multiday runs flatlining with variance at 90-120 at a good pace, ok my bad, but it won't be many at all. I've been asking to see that for 2 weeks - well done for finding it. My biggest detractor said he'd have a deep search but admitted, "he may struggle." Goodge has about 40 in 50 runs, over 3 events, over 4 years. But yeah, I hear you. Tech fail.

I can see I'm a beaten man on here and have lost the room. Thanks for taking a look, but I accept the LR view: nothing to see here.

Kr, W