Question about Specifically Training for Half-Marathon

I really don't like when people say "Well, Kenyans do this and blah blah blah blah". Were you there? Did you see them do this? If not, then you can't say for sure. Go look at Rogers Rop's Training:

http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/TrainingLogs/rodgers.htm

and you'll see some progression runs, even some very easy runs (9k in 45 minutes), but NOT any 30 minute 10k "tempo runs". Go back to Dr. Rosa's training, progression runs, but not these tempo runs at half-marathon pace.

There is a huge difference between progression runs and tempo runs. The word "tempo run" can mean so many different things to so many different people that I say we simply strip it from the lexicon.

Alan

MarathonMind wrote:

Tergat's HM pace is 7.75% slower than his 10k. (plus 20 seconds)

For our purposes use 8%. (That would be plus 25 seconds for a 31 min. 10k). Anything as close as 8% and below is not "crap" IMHO.

The funny thing about facts is that there are "Letsrun facts" and real world facts. I dwell in a world defined by the latter.

Tergat's HM pace (4:30.5) is 15.0 seconds slower than his 10k (4:15.5). My real-world calculator says that is 5.88 percent slower per mile.

For a 31:00 10k runner, 5:88% would be a difference of 17.59s per mile: 4:59.3 to 5:16.9, or 1:09:15 for the half marathon.

I'm certain that 5:17 pace for tempo runs is too fast for a 31:00 10k runner. Much too fast.

Tempo runs are not race simulations.

Try them at marathon pace and watch how much you improve.

What if you don't know your marathon pace because you've never run one and are used to running "tempo" runs at 5k + 30 seconds (which I gather as too fast from experience and this thread)?

So basically how do you calculate your guess marathon pace based off 5k or insert whatever distance you like?

Thanks

My mistake- I used 60 flat for Tergat hence the "slow" HM pace and the generous 7.75%. Your math is more accurate (although I'd round up to 6% for Paul using his Lisbon time of 59:17).

But your point is well made. HM pace is too fast for any significant duration in training.

Malmo, if you have three or four months to dedicate to a half marthon, when in the training cycle would you work them in, how long and how hard, and how often to work in the hills?

ghost racers wrote:

What if you don't know your marathon pace because you've never run one and are used to running "tempo" runs at 5k + 30 seconds (which I gather as too fast from experience and this thread)?

So basically how do you calculate your guess marathon pace based off 5k or insert whatever distance you like?

Thanks

You should be able to feel tempo pace, the same way you can feel balance, thirst, hunger, fatigue, hot or cold. Truth be told tempo pace needn't be precise, and it needn't be static. Nothing wrong with a progression down to 10 pace at the end of one.

If you feel invigorated, that's a tempo run. If you feel fatigued, that's not a tempo run. You will get no awards after a tempo run. You will start accumulating rewards - chits which you can cash in down the road.

GregS wrote:

Malmo, if you have three or four months to dedicate to a half marathon, when in the training cycle would you work them in, how long and how hard, and how often to work in the hills?

Tempo: As often as you feel, 2-8 miles. 10-12 miles sometimes. I think you can hit regular 2-4 "run-to-the-barn" efforts at the end of an easy run and get the right effect.

Learn to set your internal metronome so that you feel comfortable "in the zone." Tempo runs should be a very liberating experience.

Hills: I'd try to get them in at least once every two weeks, more frequently if you can.

MarathonMind wrote:

My mistake- I used 60 flat for Tergat hence the "slow" HM pace and the generous 7.75%. Your math is more accurate (although I'd round up to 6% for Paul using his Lisbon time of 59:17).

But your point is well made. HM pace is too fast for any significant duration in training.

I figured there was a lot of rounding up going on there.

My main point is that if you are an aerobically well-trained runner, any run at HM pace is going to be hard. HARD is not the point of tempo runs. Furthermore, if you are not a well-trained aerobic running machine you should re-evaluate what you doing and fix it.

For over 30 years I've been watching runners make the same three mistakes: 1) their long runs are not commensurate to their aggregate weekly mileage and racing objectives. 2) their tempo runs are too few, too hard, and too long, and 3) they don't run hills.

....and number 4) they avoid racing...

Malmo do you have any recommendations for those of us who are very new to hills. I don't run to many because I have alot of lower leg issues / achilles problems. Understanably running more hills would make the legs stronger and less prone to injury. I'd think making it a point just to run over hills on normal days, when doing tempo runs, or on long runs would be a good way to start.

If you got any tips I think its safe to say we are all listening.

Thanks alot.

I prefer a big hill, one that will take you 1:30-2:30 to climb. One with a back side to do 80-100 sprints. Run the big climb, jog the 80m backside, turn around and sprint, then jog down the face of the big climb. Repeat 8-10 times, you will feel it in the glutes and quads. The great thing about hills is that they don't beat you down.

New to hills? Find one that will take you 45-90 seconds. Run them, but always take a slow recovery down them. Build up as you get accustomed to them.

You really don't like it? I'm sorry. Was I there? Did I see them? Every single Kenyan runner ever? No. Some in Eldoret, where I went to train and mostly observe in 2000? Yes.

But I did, and I can. And I did.

Well, you're right about that. Good point there. And when someone goes for 60 minute progression and drops below half marathon pace 30 minutes in, I think it's safe to describe the effort as AT LEAST as intense as a 25 minute tempo at half marathon pace. And yes, many people do this 3-4 times per week.

I'm OK with that. Why don't we just name paces? Some very talented and experienced people here (Malmo) seem to see tempo as much slower than marathon pace, while it's clear that many people see it as half marathon pace or a bit faster.

train like a 10k runner, but put in longer long runs and tempos

Useful info, thank you to who posted this. I am doing the Grandview 13.1 on August 6 in Columbus. It's a totally different beast than a full!