An argument against icing injuries and using anti-inflammatory drugs

marijuologist wrote:

My request was not therefore perfectly fair.

Whoops- omit the "not"

marijuologist=iflyboats=owned? wrote:

That claim was made by the poster "iflyboats", not you.

What's going on? Posting under two names, eh? Or taking credit for someone else's work?

That was a mistake. I meant to reference ifly (my apologies to him)

funny how you almost quoted him word for word and claimed it mistakenly for your own. also funny how he backed up your erroneous claim about prostaglandins being found only in the prostate. birds of a feather i guess, or else you have a twin

easy mistake? wrote:

funny how you almost quoted him word for word and claimed it mistakenly for your own. also funny how he backed up your erroneous claim about prostaglandins being found only in the prostate. birds of a feather i guess, or else you have a twin

OK, you got me. LMFAO. Why do you CARE?? Can't stick to the subject matter?

He busted you! If it was no big deal, why did you lie inthe first place?! Why make up multple names--to make it look like more people support you? To prolong your thread? Ligthen up, its letsrun. You should know by now that if you mess up, you get hammered. You should also know that subject matters become meaningless after about 5 posts (unless it is the Zeigle girl).

You must post under other names too.

I'm 75% on the personalities on this board, just like everyone else

marijuologist wrote:

I'm 75% on the personalities on this board, just like everyone else

Do the math for me on that one. If you're 75% of the personalities on the board and there is at least one other person on the board, we either have 150% of the personalities over two people or 53%, depending on how you look at it. Either way, it reduces to zero (meaning the board has no personality) or infinity (which sounds about right for letsrun...infinite ego!). ; )

marijuologist wrote:

I'm 75% on the personalities on this board, just like everyone else

I think it's safe to say your credibilty, whatever it might have been, is just about shot at this point.

wild guess wrote:

I think it's safe to say your credibilty, whatever it might have been, is just about shot at this point.

Have you by chance ever heard of a figure of speech? It might be relevant to my previous comment.

marijuologist wrote:

Have you by chance ever heard of a figure of speech? It might be relevant to my previous comment.

Actually I was referring to your previous posts in which you

1. Called someone a retard for not understanding prostglandins and then had to admit you did not either

2. Quoted yourself as if it were someone else

3. Claimed you weren't the other person

3. Admitted you lied about that and then tried to pass it off as a "who cares".

Just a quick post (hopefully). I'll list my points to be concise.

1. There is no good evidence that proves ultrasound works as a nonthermal agent (to produce healing or stimulate growth factors. However, there is great evidence that it works as a heat modality that heats intrarticular tissues but that is of no benefit for this conversation.

2. Anti-inflammatory medicatiosn and ice do not inhibit healing. This is merely rephrasing what I tried to write earlier, but they act on the first stage of inflammation and reduce the scope of injury. They promote healing in a way by reducing the amount of injury and tissue death. The less tissue death, the quicker inflammation's work can be achieved.

3. You make a great point about pain and a false sense of recovery. My only thoughts on that are that one should be careful in returning from injury. However, the fact is that no matter how much tissue healing is allwoed to occur, the tissue will never be as strong as it was before. The danger of re-injury is always higher than it was before.

Hope this helps.

I'd also like to add that all of you arguing on the boards sound ridiculous. Do you realize that you are arguing annonymously and no pride is at stake. The board would be a lot more insightful and productive for runners if you guys could learn to not be offended by online jabs and bantering. It shows a lot of immaturity to start fights over what someone said about your post ONLINE. Thats just my two cents...

id also like to add im only an undergraduate student studying athletic training and pre-med. a doctor or researchers opinion would also be of value.

thanks

and as far as the prostaglandins go. they are found in a lot of tissues but are implicated in inflammation. they also serve as protective mediators in the gastric mucosa of the stomach, hence the stomach ache if you take ant-inflammatory meds without food or at too high a dose.

This is the best thread ever.

schaefs wrote:

I'd also like to add that all of you arguing on the boards sound ridiculous. Do you realize that you are arguing annonymously and no pride is at stake. The board would be a lot more insightful and productive for runners if you guys could learn to not be offended by online jabs and bantering. It shows a lot of immaturity to start fights over what someone said about your post ONLINE. Thats just my two cents...

Yes, marijuologist/iffyboats/schaefs, it also shows a lot of immaturity to post under 3 different names on the same thread and then to pretend you were not the same person each time.

Here's a hint for next time you want to pretend you are someone else: Lose the word "modalities". It's a dead giveaway.

I guess I'll add one more piece of information that I just thought about. Proper tissue healing is an all inclusive approach. Ice and anti-inflammatories just aid in reducing the scope of injury and reducing the negative affects of inflammation. To promote full healing, these modalities should be used in conjunction with ROM, strength, and functional exercises (usually in that order).

Immaturity is profanity, ad hominem attacks, insisting on innacurate and unresearched statements, and creating extra names to back up your incorrect claims.

This board would be a lot more insightful and productive if people were better informed, and did research on their own before inventing another name to corroberate their mistake.

When someone says something incorrect on a public message board, they can and will and should be called on it. Nobody was picking a fight (most replies to marijuologist are pretty tame), just correcting a mistake. The genesis of the fighting isn't the correction, it is the hostile rejection of the correction.

I agree--if I make a mistake and come back and call you a "'tard" if you correct me, that is quite immature!

Well, it seems I have lost my credibility here. I didn't want to get caught up in the finger pointing, I just wanted it to end. I don't post on this website often just for reasons like this. I am not connected to marijuloist or whatever his name is. All the posts under schaefs have been by me. The resources I am using to base my claims are Chad Starkey's Thereaputic Modalities text book along with a few journals I used in writing a literature review on cryotherapy and a return to atheltic participation. I also wrote a literature review on anti-inflammatory medications (it was mostly on COX 2 inhibitors and over the counter drugs).

Here are the resources. They may be of some help. However the text books are probably more related to the topic at hand and are harder to come across. To find the journals, just type the article name and authors name onto google and do a scholarly search. You should be able to find it that way. Two things to note. One, I purposely removed the university library I used and, two, I stress that I am only an undergraduate student and a professional opinion would be of great value. I also hope I'm not violating somecopyright laws by doing this but here it is...

Atnip, Beth C., and McCroy, Jean L. “The Effect of Cryotherapy on Three Dimensional Ankle Kinematics During a Sidestep Cutting Maneuver.” Journal of Sports Science and Medicine 3.2 2004: 83-90. JSSM. 25 Sep. 2005

Chesterton et al. “Skin Temperature Response to Cryotherapy.” Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation. 83.4 2002: 543-549. PubMed. 25 Sep. 2005

Dover, Geoffery, and Powers, Micheal E. “Cryotherapy Does Not Impair Joint Position Sense.” Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation. 85.8 2004: 1241-1246. Science Direct. 25 Sep. 2005

Hopper, D., and Whittington, D., and Davies, J. “Does Ice Immersion Influence Ankle Joint Position Sense?” Physiotherapy. 3.1 1998: 223-236. PubMed. PubMed.

Hubbard, Tricia J., and Aronson, Stephanie L., and Dengar, Craig R. “Does Cryotherapy Hasten Return to Participation? A Systematic Review.” Journal of Athletic Training. 39.1 2004: 88-94. 2005

Martin, Stephanie S. et al. “Cryotherapy: An Effective Modality for Decreasing Intraarticular Temperature after Knee Arthroscopy.” The American Journal of Sports Medicine. 29 2001: 288-291. PubMed. 25 Sep. 2005

Merrick, Mark A., and Jutte, Lisa S., and Smith, Micheal E. “Cold Modalities With Different Thermodynamic Properties Produce Different Surface and Intramuscular Temperatures.” Journal of Athletic Training. 38.1 2003: 28-33.

Rubley, Mack D., and Denegar, Craig R. and Buckley, William E., and Newell, Karl M. “Cryotherapy, Sensation, and Isometric-Force Variability.” Journal of Athletic Training. 38.2 2003: 113-119. 25 Sep. 2005

Tremblay, Francois, and Estephan, Lorein, and Legendre, Martine, and Sulpher, Stephanie. “Influence of Local Cooling on Proprioceptive Acuity in the Quadriceps Muscle.” Journal of Athletic Training. 36.2 2001: 119-123.

Starkey, Chad. Therapeutic Modalities. 3rd ed. Philadelphia: F.A Davis Company, 2004.

Bertoloni, A., and Ottani, A., and Sandrini, M. “Selective COX-2 Inhibitors and Dual Acting Anti-Inflammatory Drugs: Critical Remarks.” Current Medicinal Chemistry. 9 2002: 1033-1043.

Clark, Nancy. Medication Review: Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs. 1999. 2 Dec 2005 ``http://www.dhmh.state.md.us/mha/rx%20comm%20pdf/nsaid.pdf#search='antiinflammatory%20medication'%%

Cluett. Jonathan. “Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Pain Medications.” Orthopedics. 2005. 2 Dec 2005

Ciccone, Charles D. Pharmacology in Rehabilitation. 2nd ed. Philadelphia: F.A. Davis, 1996.

Eddy, Lynne. Physical Therapy Pharmacology. St. Louis: Mosby Year Book, 1992.

Gringauz, Alex. Drugs: How They Act and Why. St. Louis: Mosby Year Book, 1978.

Kuehl, Frederick A., and Egan, Robert W. “Prostaglandins, Arachidonic Acid, and Inflammation.” Science, New Series 210 (1980):978-984. JSTOR Journal Archive. JSTOR. 9 Sep. 2005 .

McAdam, B.F., and Catella-Lawson, F., and Mardini, I.A., and Kapoor, S., and Lawson, J.A., and Fitzgerald, G.A. “Systemic Biosynthesis of Prostacyclin by Cyclooxygenase (COX)-2: The Human Pharamcology of a Selective Inhibitor of COX-2.” The National Academy of Sciences. 96 1999: 272-277. 2 Dec. 2005.

Rodrigues, C.R., and Veloso, M.P., and Veril, H., and Fraga, C.A.M., and Miranda, A.L.P., and Barreiro, E.J. “Selective PGHS-2 Inhibitors: A Rational Approach for Treatment of the Inflammation.” Current Medicinal Chemistry 9 (2002): 849-867.

qwert wrote:

I agree--if I make a mistake and come back and call you a "'tard" if you correct me, that is quite immature!

You want to talk about doing research before you make statements? Go back and re-read the posts you are referencing. The person whom I called a 'tard had not offered any correction or counterargument; he/she simply attacked my personality.