Ironically, if Coe had been forced to stay at home in 1980, he likely would have been motivated like hell to smash his own 800 WR, perhaps even going sub 1:41. He might still have the WR, with everybody here assuming he was denied a certain Olympic gold to boot.
If Coe had run in Rudisha's era he would just as likely be the world record-holder as the Kenyan. If Rudisha had run in Coe's era the Brit would just as likely have been the world record holder then, too. 0.8 seconds in over 30 years is no real improvement.
No Olympic medals for Kipketer against Coe's two silver? There was also no WC competition in much of Coe's era, which was '79/81 at its peak.
Kipketer won a Silver in 2000 narrowly getting beat and a Bronze in 2004 well past his prime. He was denied a chance in his prime to compete in 1996. From the fact that from the 1995-2000 prime of his he ran 4 global finals and went 3 golds, 1 silver, there’s really no disputing that Coe’s record in the 800 during his 79-84 prime of 0 golds, 2 silvers and 1 DNC is worse.
Kipketer took just over half a second off Coe's record after 15 years. 15 years before Coe the record was 1.44.3 - more than two and a half seconds slower. In those terms alone, his was the far greater accomplishment.
Kipketer's performance also occurred when EPO was available, was being used by top athletes and for which there was then no test. It wasn't available in 1981. I would put an asterisk over Kipketer's record, as I would for most middle and long distance track performances in that era.
If Britain had boycotted Moscow like every other Western country, everybody here (including the many Coe haters) would assume and accept that Coe would have won the 800 in Moscow. The pressure was too much for Coe in his first Olympic final, just as it was too much for Kipketer in 2004 in his last Olympic final.
Huh? They didn't boycott, and it resulted in a B-level field making winning Gold even easier. Not a hater, but he just ran poorly. Armstronglivs insists that Ovett was way worse than Coe based on his PB. Well he closed in 50.6, he ran a good race. I'd say his PB is below his actual level a bit, and this run shows in an unpaced race he was a legitimate rival to Coe. Still doesn't excuse Coe barely getting 2nd and the gulf between Ovett and himself. You can blame it on the pressure, sure.
Kipketer in contrast ran pretty much at his level in 2004 in getting that bronze. He got 4th the year before, must've been feeling the pressure of the World Champs? I wouldn't call improving a place and being much closer to beating Mulaudzi and Borzakovskiy a choke at all.
Maybe you can try answering this question : what times do you think Coe would have ran, if he had been born the same year as Kipketer? Quite possible he would never have seriously attempted to be a 800/1500 man, and would have concentrated on the 800. What would have a prime Coe ran in the 90's or 00's if he was competing in 6 or 7 fast paced high quality fields each season, with no distractions as to the 1500 and mile, and training exclusively for the 800, with even more emphasis on speed work?
Maybe he would've run a 3-5 tenths faster, I can cede that. I would say 1:41.4 or 1:41.3, who knows. I would note that Kipketer/Rudisha had more the outlier performance than clocking in their careers. Kipketer ran 1:41.24 and went out in 48-low to do so. He improved the time, but that might've been his best performance given how fast a split that was.
Meanwhile Rudisha ran 1:40.9, with no pacing help, after rounds in an Olympic final.
Would Coe have concentrated solely on the 800 in a different era? There're a lot of variables in this. By 1984, he assuredly would have moved up to the 1500 as Cruz had surpassed him. But then you might say maybe his career would have turned out totally had he just trained exclusively for the 800. The upshot is I don't know, and Coe made his choices in his time. He got two golds at the 1500 in the Olympics and is a legend in that event for that.
You just ignore what others are stating don’t you? Which part of Kipketer had 5 or more opportunities to run in a global championships because they were held every 2 years throughout his career whereas Coe had 1 opportunity (but was ill that year)do you not comprehend? You can’t criticise someone for not doing something that wasn’t possible for them to do! It’s a pretty simple and straightforward concept.
Regardless how lengthy your posts are, Deano, they will not change the simple fact: Coe's championship record is way inferior to both Kipketer's and Rudisha's:
Coe
1976 (19) Olympics: dnq
1977 (20) European Indoor: gold
1978 (21) European Champs: bronze
1980 (23) Olympics (boykottet): silver
1982 (25) European Champs: silver
1983: (26) World Champs: dnc
1984 (27) Olympics: silver
1986 (29) European Champs: gold
1987 (30) World Champs: dnc
1988 (31) Olympics: dnq
1990 (32) Commonwealth Games: 6th
European (outdoor) Champs were much more important then they are now.
also available for Coe: European Indoor Champs in any year1978 - 1990 - World Indoor Champs 1987, 1989 - Commonwealth Games 1978, 1982, 1986 (he qualified for the final)
This is way inferior to Kipketer:
1988 (15) World Junior Champs: won his heat but got a dq for going inside too early
1990 (17) World Junior Champs: 4th
1992 (19) Olympics: dnq
1993 (20) World Champs: dnq
1995 (22) World Champs: gold
1996 (23) Olympics: not allowed to compete because of change of nationality
1997 (24) World Indoor Champs: gold, World Champs: gold
1998 (25) European Champs: 8th (hindered with 100 to go by the winner)
1999 (26) World Indoor Champs: silver, World Champs: gold
2000 (27) Olympics: silver
2001 (28) World Champs: (dnq, did not race the whole season)
2002 (29) European Champs: gold
2003 (30) World Indoor Champs: silver, World Champs: 4th
2004 (31) Olympics: bronze
also available for Kipketer: European Indoor Champs 1996(?), 1998, 2000, 2002, Commonwealth Games 1990, 1994(?), African Champs: 1988, 1989, 1990, 1992,1993(?)
Three global outdoor titles plus the indoor gold achieved in unique fashion, it's not even close, Deanouk.
No need to go into detail for Rudisha with Olympics: 2 golds, World Champs: 2 golds, African Champs: 2 golds; World Junior Champs: 1 gold
But for sure, Coe at his best from 81 was as good (better?) as Kipketer at his best from 97 or Rudisha from 2010 - 12.
If Coe had run in Rudisha's era he would just as likely be the world record-holder as the Kenyan. If Rudisha had run in Coe's era the Brit would just as likely have been the world record holder then, too. 0.8 seconds in over 30 years is no real improvement.
This might be fair, it's hard to say for sure. Championships matter too, and how one stacks up in their era.
Coe still couldn't win a global title in his era. 1980 - well-beaten second to a watered-down field. 1983- couldn't make it to the line. 1984- well-beaten second. 1987- couldn't make it to the line. 1988- couldn't make it to the line.
Compare to Rudisha and Kipketer. Kipketer wins his first 3 cracks at in his prime, and then narrowly gets silver in 2000. Rudisha struggles in 2009 in his first global champs, but then rips off 4 of 5 global titles missing just 2013 due to injury.
I would put an asterisk over Kipketer's record, as I would for most middle and long distance track performances in that era.
But for sure not for Coe's record, right? One of the biggest outliers in history.
It was before EPO. He is also not Kenyan, which ranks second only to Russia for doping busts. If Coe possibly doped in some way I would say for certain that the fastest md Kenyan - sorry - Dutch athlete - in the '90's absolutely did, with EPO rife and no test for it.
(Also, Elliott and Ryun's world marks were bigger outliers than Coe's 800m record).
It was before EPO. He is also not Kenyan, which ranks second only to Russia for doping busts. If Coe possibly doped in some way I would say for certain that the fastest md Kenyan - sorry - Dutch athlete - in the '90's absolutely did, with EPO rife and no test for it.
(Also, Elliott and Ryun's world marks were bigger outliers than Coe's 800m record).
You just reek of bias. On the one hand, Kipketer was barely and maybe not even better than Coe based on the better tracks and racing opportunities. On the other hand, he is more likely to have doped despite being far less of an outlier because there was no EPO test and Kenya some 20 years later would start getting assorted drug busts. And because this was the EPO era. Well, how much testing was going on in the '80s, and how effectively they were stamping out Soviet doping or blood doping/steroid use from anyone else? The answer? Not much and almost not at all.
I'd just advise you to leave drugs out of the equation, and focus on your other arguments which are not great either, but at least are less easy to poke giant holes in.
If Coe had run in Rudisha's era he would just as likely be the world record-holder as the Kenyan. If Rudisha had run in Coe's era the Brit would just as likely have been the world record holder then, too. 0.8 seconds in over 30 years is no real improvement.
This might be fair, it's hard to say for sure. Championships matter too, and how one stacks up in their era.
Coe still couldn't win a global title in his era. 1980 - well-beaten second to a watered-down field. 1983- couldn't make it to the line. 1984- well-beaten second. 1987- couldn't make it to the line. 1988- couldn't make it to the line.
Compare to Rudisha and Kipketer. Kipketer wins his first 3 cracks at in his prime, and then narrowly gets silver in 2000. Rudisha struggles in 2009 in his first global champs, but then rips off 4 of 5 global titles missing just 2013 due to injury.
That ignores that Coe's peak was 79-81. '84 was an "Indian summer" but he wasn't quite at the level he had been before he had mono (remind you of someone?). He never found that '81 level again. Rudisha has the better overall career in the event but I would say that at their respective peaks there isn't anything to choose between them - if they had competed in each other's era. Same for Coe and Kipketer.
That ignores that Coe's peak was 79-81. '84 was an "Indian summer" but he wasn't quite at the level he had been before he had mono (remind you of someone?). He never found that '81 level again. Rudisha has the better overall career in the event but I would say that at their respective peaks there isn't anything to choose between them - if they had competed in each other's era. Same for Coe and Kipketer.
Sure I know Coe had a short super-peak and it was unlikely for him that 2 of the 3 years lacked a global champs. But I'd just flag this is somewhat a shortcoming of his career. He had 3 years at his absolute best as an 800m runner, and coughed up a global title in the one that coincided with it. This is unlike Kipketer who had 5 peak years ('94-'97, 99) or Rudisha who had the 3 ('10-'12), but was a better global championship performer at 800 than Coe even below his peak in '15-'16.
But yes, I'll agree that in a paced time-trial race it'd be hard to pick amongst any of a neutral track at the peak of their powers. If we're going unpaced, it's impossible to pick Coe for the win. It's even really hard to pick him better than 3rd.
It was before EPO. He is also not Kenyan, which ranks second only to Russia for doping busts. If Coe possibly doped in some way I would say for certain that the fastest md Kenyan - sorry - Dutch athlete - in the '90's absolutely did, with EPO rife and no test for it.
(Also, Elliott and Ryun's world marks were bigger outliers than Coe's 800m record).
You just reek of bias. On the one hand, Kipketer was barely and maybe not even better than Coe based on the better tracks and racing opportunities. On the other hand, he is more likely to have doped despite being far less of an outlier because there was no EPO test and Kenya some 20 years later would start getting assorted drug busts. And because this was the EPO era. Well, how much testing was going on in the '80s, and how effectively they were stamping out Soviet doping or blood doping/steroid use from anyone else? The answer? Not much and almost not at all.
I'd just advise you to leave drugs out of the equation, and focus on your other arguments which are not great either, but at least are less easy to poke giant holes in.
What is the "giant hole" in noting the most powerful performance enhancing drug in the history of track became available from the late '80's and was undetectable till 2003? Further, that the wr holder in the '90's came from a country subsequently shown to have endemic doping issues, and in an era when doping had become so widespread that the '96 Olympics were described as the "drugs Olympics". Drugs can never be ruled out of discussions about elite and pro running in recent decades but they absolutely loom large in the '90's. To rule it out for Kipketer is to say that as a "clean" athlete he was faster than all the best on EPO in his generation. Color me sceptical on that. The "case" against Coe - who of course wasn't Soviet bloc - is far weaker. As I have also said, if he had doped in some way he wouldn't have had the doping advantages available to athletes in the '90's.
That ignores that Coe's peak was 79-81. '84 was an "Indian summer" but he wasn't quite at the level he had been before he had mono (remind you of someone?). He never found that '81 level again. Rudisha has the better overall career in the event but I would say that at their respective peaks there isn't anything to choose between them - if they had competed in each other's era. Same for Coe and Kipketer.
Sure I know Coe had a short super-peak and it was unlikely for him that 2 of the 3 years lacked a global champs. But I'd just flag this is somewhat a shortcoming of his career. He had 3 years at his absolute best as an 800m runner, and coughed up a global title in the one that coincided with it. This is unlike Kipketer who had 5 peak years ('94-'97, 99) or Rudisha who had the 3 ('10-'12), but was a better global championship performer at 800 than Coe even below his peak in '15-'16.
But yes, I'll agree that in a paced time-trial race it'd be hard to pick amongst any of a neutral track at the peak of their powers. If we're going unpaced, it's impossible to pick Coe for the win. It's even really hard to pick him better than 3rd.
Hard to pick Coe for the win "unpaced"? His 1.41.73 was run completely alone in the second lap. Rudisha is the only one amongst the three who led from start to finish. That was his style. Further, the track Coe ran on wasn't the quality of track at the 2012 Olympics. Virtually all 800 record-holders were led through the first lap at least. But the hardest part of the race - the second lap - was often run with no competition. Rudisha led in London but he also had a championship field breathing down his neck till the finish. He also never ran faster - despite the lack of a "pacer".
Further, that the wr holder in the '90's came from a country subsequently shown to have endemic doping issues, and in an era when doping had become so widespread that the '96 Olympics were described as the "drugs Olympics". Drugs can never be ruled out of discussions about elite and pro running in recent decades but they absolutely loom large in the '90's. To rule it out for Kipketer is to say that as a "clean" athlete he was faster than all the best on EPO in his generation. Color me sceptical on that. The "case" against Coe - who of course wasn't Soviet bloc - is far weaker. As I have also said, if he had doped in some way he wouldn't have had the doping advantages available to athletes in the '90's.
There're a couple things to point out. One would be the impact of EPO on the 800. Most of the huge time drops were demonstrably in the 1500 and up. I suspect if you charted a regression analysis of the 800, you'd see little difference between the 80s, the EPO era, the post EPO test era and so on.
The countries with systematic doping program later on were revealed to be Morocco, Algeria, Spain, Turkey and Russia (there might be more I've forgotten). There're coaches like Jama Aden, who are notorious for doping as well. Kenya has had doping problems, but it has been characterized by investigators to be more random and not led from the top. You're also interchangeably pegging Kipketer as a Kenyan athlete when he resided in Denmark and missed the Olympics due to his allegiance to Denmark (and Kenya not letting him compete). Do we think that same governing body was investing in him with PEDs and/or ensuring he passed tests? Seems like an odd relationship.
Now, if you don't think Coe/Ovett ran against and convincingly beat doped athletes in the 800/1500, I'd say you are being similarly naive. By your same logic you should be skeptical of their accomplishments. Throw in the fact that Great Britain was the middle-distance power of the decade, so all of their athletes were beating possibly doped athletes. Blood doping is full of benefits as are steroids in the right fashion for a middle-distance runner. Maybe it might not be as good as EPO for the 1500 and up, but it would be helpful.
For the record, I don't think either of these two were doping.
Ironically, if Coe had been forced to stay at home in 1980, he likely would have been motivated like hell to smash his own 800 WR, perhaps even going sub 1:41. He might still have the WR, with everybody here assuming he was denied a certain Olympic gold to boot.
If Coe had run in Rudisha's era he would just as likely be the world record-holder as the Kenyan.
To rule it out for Kipketer is to say that as a "clean" athlete he was faster than all the best on EPO in his generation. Color me sceptical on that. The "case" against Coe - who of course wasn't Soviet bloc - is far weaker.
To rule it out for Coe is to say that as a "clean" athlete he was faster than all of the best doped up athletes (apart of two?) of the next three generations including the EPO generation.
You bias is clear to see. Is this a phenomenon of people from English speaking countries?
If Britain had boycotted Moscow like every other Western country, everybody here (including the many Coe haters) would assume and accept that Coe would have won the 800 in Moscow. The pressure was too much for Coe in his first Olympic final, just as it was too much for Kipketer in 2004 in his last Olympic final.
Huh? They didn't boycott, and it resulted in a B-level field making winning Gold even easier. Not a hater, but he just ran poorly. Armstronglivs insists that Ovett was way worse than Coe based on his PB. Well he closed in 50.6, he ran a good race. I'd say his PB is below his actual level a bit, and this run shows in an unpaced race he was a legitimate rival to Coe. Still doesn't excuse Coe barely getting 2nd and the gulf between Ovett and himself. You can blame it on the pressure, sure.
Kipketer in contrast ran pretty much at his level in 2004 in getting that bronze. He got 4th the year before, must've been feeling the pressure of the World Champs? I wouldn't call improving a place and being much closer to beating Mulaudzi and Borzakovskiy a choke at all.
You mentioned that Kipketer was denied Olympic Gold by the Kenyan authorities (or whoever). I'm making the point that you have no right to assume he would have won gold. I'm making the point that IF Coe had been forced to stay home due to a boycott, EVERYBODY HERE INCLUDING THE HATERS WOULD 100% ASSUME COE WOULD HAVE WON GOLD BUT 'FOR A BOYCOTT'. I know there wasn't a boycott and that Ovett beat Coe for gold, but I'm saying if there had been a boycott, very few would be saying now that, well, Ovett would probably have beaten Coe in the Moscow 800.
Hope this makes sense now.
Coe choked in 1980. Kipketer choked in 2000. Go back and watch it again on YouTube. Ironically, Coe is giving (excellent and sympathetic) commentry, and clearly is of the opinion that Kipketer blew it. I'm not repeating myself again, but Kipketer could have won 101 world championship golds and it still doesn't tell us that he would have been able to handle the pressure in 1996 as overwhelming favorite.
And please stop with the nonsense about Moscow being weak fields. Both the 800 and 1500 were stacked with Soviet Bloc athletes more doped than anything we saw again until El G.
Hard to pick Coe for the win "unpaced"? His 1.41.73 was run completely alone in the second lap. Rudisha is the only one amongst the three who led from start to finish. That was his style. Further, the track Coe ran on wasn't the quality of track at the 2012 Olympics. Virtually all 800 record-holders were led through the first lap at least. But the hardest part of the race - the second lap - was often run with no competition. Rudisha led in London but he also had a championship field breathing down his neck till the finish. He also never ran faster - despite the lack of a "pacer".
The point is Coe didn't run his best in his championship races vs. top competition. His tactics in 1980 were bad, and his last 100 stunk which compounds it. In 1984, his tactics were OK but he barely beat Earl Jones with not much of a sprint. The best argument you could make was how he ran in the 1986 European Final.
Rudisha front-ran and showed he can win any which way (slow race, medium-paced race, world record). Kipketer won from behind in '95 and '99 with strong last 100 meters and front-ran for the win in '97 with a 23.47 first 200. Coe's best blueprint appears to be '86, but a similar strategy in '84 failed against superior competition and in 1980 he got it all wrong with that strategy as mentioned above.