Jakob FINISHES Running Career as a 3:28.32 1500m Runner. I predict he's already run his PB.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

ElBULL2 wrote:

Why don't you answer the question if the other guy wont? What times do you think Rudisha would have recorded and how often, if he had been born the same year as Coe?

Kipketer had 9 attempts on Coe's WR in 1996 and failed every time. Coe had two attempts on the WR in his entire career, and succeeded both times, by extraordinary margins.

I think Rudisha would've run 1:41-low in Coe's era. I don't see why not. Not like the guy needed a pacer or help to run fast. Yes, he'd probably do it less often than he did in his era, but more often than Coe absolutely. Look at Cruz' 1984-85 for instance.

9 attempts lol. According to who? Kipketer running and winning on the circuit vs. the best athletes in the world is now downgraded because he didn't best the record every time. It would be better if he ran against mediocre competition intentionally dodging his biggest rival and aiming for 1:43-1:47s you think? Do you really think he went into every race thinking if I don't set a World Record I fail? Please.

In 1997, he got it in his mind to do it. First he crushed what had been the record indoors. In June, he tied the outdoors record. Then he crushed everyone in a Global Finals 800 (something Coe went 0-fer on). After that he beat the record by a half second twice.

Coe had his whole career to try to attack his World Record, but he never was in that sort of shape again for 800. Which is why Cruz, Ereng, Cram etc. were the guys running super-fast and not him.

Red Arrow wrote:

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

I think Rudisha would've run 1:41-low in Coe's era. I don't see why not. Not like the guy needed a pacer or help to run fast. Yes, he'd probably do it less often than he did in his era, but more often than Coe absolutely. Look at Cruz' 1984-85 for instance.

9 attempts lol. According to who? Kipketer running and winning on the circuit vs. the best athletes in the world is now downgraded because he didn't best the record every time. It would be better if he ran against mediocre competition intentionally dodging his biggest rival and aiming for 1:43-1:47s you think? Do you really think he went into every race thinking if I don't set a World Record I fail? Please.

In 1997, he got it in his mind to do it. First he crushed what had been the record indoors. In June, he tied the outdoors record. Then he crushed everyone in a Global Finals 800 (something Coe went 0-fer on). After that he beat the record by a half second twice.

Coe had his whole career to try to attack his World Record, but he never was in that sort of shape again for 800. Which is why Cruz, Ereng, Cram etc. were the guys running super-fast and not him.

You just ignore what others are stating don’t you? Which part of Kipketer had 5 or more opportunities to run in a global championships because they were held every 2 years throughout his career whereas Coe had 1 opportunity (but was ill that year)do you not comprehend?

Red Arrow wrote:

Lollys Master wrote:

Absolutely not misleading, no matter how often you gonna say otherwise.

This is a very good indicator of how much better Rudisha was than Coe in the 800m.

No, it’s totally misleading. Rudisha was competing in an era that was 30 years later than Coe! Its like if you put up a list comparing Coe’s 1500m times with Bannister’s 30 years before him! Who would you expect to have the faster average time? D’uh!

When Coe was at his best between 79 and 84, no one else in the world had broken 1:43.4. No need to run a slew of 1:42 or even 1:43 races for him, as 1:44 invariably won him the race.

Rudisha had plenty of guys who were 1:42/1:43 runners, running at a time when there was a much more lucrative circuit, offering regular 49 sec first laps against much more in depth quality. It doesn’t take a genius to work out that such an environment is far more conducive to a greater quantity of fast times.

There are a lot of people posting on here who are totally ignorant of the BAAB system in the late 70’s and early 80’s for UK runners. Unlike now when the likes of Rudisha can run whenever and wherever he pleases on the circuit, UK athletes had to get permission from the BAAB (British Athletics board) to run in events in Europe. They were forced to run a large percentage of their races at home in domestic fixtures in order to gain a permit to run at the big events on the continent. There were also lots of international 2 way and 3 way competitions between different countries, and if an athlete wanted selection they had to run a certain number of these per year. Thus Coe had to run a lot of meets in the UK, and also turned out for his Uni and Club on quite a few occasions early season. One should remember that the UK probably had the most in depth talent in middle distance at this time, so he wouldn’t be racing against nobodies in many of them. But invariably they were slower and more tactical races. It was a completely different time with different expectations.

Coe was actually reprimanded and had to explain himself to the BAAB for running in Oslo in 79 after breaking the 800m WR, because he hadn’t been sanctioned to run there. You guys have no idea how controlling UK Athletics was at the time, and it didn’t really change until the late 80’s. Ironically, the person who was effected the least was Ovett, as his best man and agent, Andy Norman, was the head honcho and was able to get passes for Ovett to miss quite a few events where he was meant to be running for GB. In fact that was the cause of his breakdown with the press in the mid 70’s - he wouldn’t run for GB in a European Cup competition, citing that he wanted to go on holiday with his girlfriend, and was subsequently ripped apart for his unpatriotic stance by the UK press.

Another example of their control was in 82, just prior to the European Champs in Athens, when Coe, after spending most of the summer injured, before putting 3 close races (and victories) together in European permit races to simulate the demands he faced in Athens, was forced by the BAAB to run in a meaningless event at Crystal Palace, with the threat (to all UK athletes, not just him) that anyone who didn’t comply without a valid excuse, would not be going to the Europeans. As a result he took part in a 4 x 800 relay against his will, and run an unnecessarily swift 1:44.0 as the anchor.
Anyone who was following the sport in the UK at the time would know this, and the history of Coe’s criticism of the Board for just such demands.

So dismissing him for not running as many fast races as someone running under far less restrictions, in a different context, 30 years later is pretty pathetic. How many athletes competing in 1951 were still in the top 3 all time list in 81, 30 years later?

Red Arrow wrote:

You just ignore what others are stating don’t you? Which part of Kipketer had 5 or more opportunities to run in a global championships because they were held every 2 years throughout his career whereas Coe had 1 opportunity (but was ill that year)do you not comprehend? You can’t criticise someone for not doing something that wasn’t possible for them to do! It’s a pretty simple and straightforward concept.

You say that after 84 Coe wasn’t running ‘super fast’ and that Cruz, Ereng and Cram were. Well, just to clarify, Coe ran 1:43.07 in 85, one of his worst seasons with several injury problems, but happened to be in a race where the pacer went through in 49 low and he was dragged to a fast time. He was certainly not in as good a shape as he had been the previous year or was to show the following year, although in neither of those years did he run as fast. Strange that isn’t it?
Anyway, the point is, Ereng never ran as fast as a ‘past it’ Coe ran in 85 in his entire career. And Cram only beat it once, by O.21, in the best form of his career. And the following year, despite only running a few 1:44 lows, Coe beat Cram soundly in the Europeans and was world ranked #1. Not bad for a past it runner.

You seem to be oblivious to the fact that because an athlete runs 1:43.07 one year and 1:44.1 the next, that he was not as good in the 2nd year. Most would see that this is patently rubbish. It just so happened that he didn’t need to run faster to win his races or his title in 86, and that he got dragged to a fast time in 85 because he happened to be in a race where the pace went out fast. Had he wanted to, and the fact that he was already WR holder probably affected that desire (along with the fewer opportunities back then) he could almost certainly have run a few 1:42’s in 84 and 86, and indeed in 80. Yet the opportunity never arose.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

I am not saying that overall Rudisha was not the superior 800m runner to Coe - he may have been, on competitive results - but to try to make that argument on times alone is misplaced when they were competing 3 decades apart. That said, it can be maintained that Coe was better in one significant respect, which is that he reduced the world mark by a far greater margin than Rudisha has. Rudisha's record is only 0.8s faster than Coe's record, which is an incremental improvement in 30 years. In the same period of time - 30 years - before Coe's record the world mark was almost 5 secs slower. Who would seriously try to compare Harbig and Courtenay with Coe? Yet the debate here treats Coe and Rudisha as though they were contemporaries.

Because the conditions of the day in 1980 or so and 2010 are closer than in 1950. From money in the sport to footwear, tracks, pacemaking and more. Not every 30-year chunk is worth the same. That's why you're not seeing athletes run 1:42s like they're nothing in this era.

Part of Coe's greatness was taking it to another level in the 800 in time trials. Then Kipketer combined that with more dominance and going even further down in time. Rudisha went one step further with both Kipketer's dominance but the legendary World Record and Olympic performances that Kipketer lacked.

This excludes Coe's amazing abilities in the 1500/mile, which I do not mean to overlook.