This reminds me of how good Rono was. His drug of choice was alcohol - not exactly a performance enhancer - and he was a borderline alcoholic (and on his way to becoming one).
As far as Grant is concerned, he doesn't owe anything to anyone. Three American records in one season and a 4th at the World Championships. That is the third greatest season for an American track distance runner ever - behind Lagat and Rupp and tied with the great Billy Mills. Not to mention he is wicked smart and has an engineering degree from Stanford. Track and field needs Grant Fisher. Grant Fisher doesn't need track and field.
This reminds me of how good Rono was. His drug of choice was alcohol - not exactly a performance enhancer - and he was a borderline alcoholic (and on his way to becoming one).
As far as Grant is concerned, he doesn't owe anything to anyone. Three American records in one season and a 4th at the World Championships. That is the third greatest season for an American track distance runner ever - behind Lagat and Rupp and tied with the great Billy Mills. Not to mention he is wicked smart and has an engineering degree from Stanford. Track and field needs Grant Fisher. Grant Fisher doesn't need track and field.
There is no way that Fisher’s season is the 3rd greatest for an American track distance runner. NO WAY! You are placing way too much emphasis on records when the spikes and track surfaces are rendering the records not as meaningful. In 1972 Steve Prefontaine set 4 American records and was 4th in the Olympic 5000m. That is just one example of a season which is superior to Fisher’s.
Pre's historic 1974 season is fifth. You are incorrect with respect to Pre. He actually set 6 American records but one, the 6 miles, was en route to his 10k record. He also set a records for 2 miles and 3 miles, which are, of course, distances that no one runs anymore (except at the Pre classic). So, Pre had a very good year but he did not get 4th in the Olympics that year. Fisher was, as you know, 4th in the World Champs 10k and 6th in the 5k. You are right, Pre had a great 1974 but it was not better than Fisher's 2022, which hasn't ended yet. One last thing, and this will probably raise your blood pressure more than a little, Fisher is running against much better competition than Pre.
This reminds me of how good Rono was. His drug of choice was alcohol - not exactly a performance enhancer - and he was a borderline alcoholic (and on his way to becoming one).
As far as Grant is concerned, he doesn't owe anything to anyone. Three American records in one season and a 4th at the World Championships. That is the third greatest season for an American track distance runner ever - behind Lagat and Rupp and tied with the great Billy Mills. Not to mention he is wicked smart and has an engineering degree from Stanford. Track and field needs Grant Fisher. Grant Fisher doesn't need track and field.
There is no way that Fisher’s season is the 3rd greatest for an American track distance runner. NO WAY! You are placing way too much emphasis on records when the spikes and track surfaces are rendering the records not as meaningful. In 1972 Steve Prefontaine set 4 American records and was 4th in the Olympic 5000m. That is just one example of a season which is superior to Fisher’s.
You keep talking about 1974 which was another great year for Pre but I was discussing 1972.
Not sure why you are sorry as you have an opinion and that is all it is. Solinsky arguably had as good a year as Fisher when in 2010 Chris broke the American record in the 10000m and also ran 12:55 and 12:56 twice when the American record was 12:54. These times would be faster now with the super spikes.
One that we haven't mentioned, that totally slipped my mind, was Bob Schul's 1964 season, which ended with a gold medal at the Olympics. I had forgotten that the US won both the 5 and 10k in 64. However you look at it, it is a lot of fun that we can even debate how good Fisher's season is. Let's hope he isn't a shooting star, for his sake, like Solinsky or Pre.
I don't know how this gets a downvote. 3:27.40 is the American record. 3:29.30 was Lagat's old record. He ran the faster time in 2004 after becoming an American citizen, so they eventually counted it. It's more legit than Tyson Gay's record.
Track Events 100 9.69 Tyson Gay Shanghai, China 200 19.32 Michael Johnson (Nike) Atlanta, Georgia 8/01/96 19.31p Noah Lyles (adidas) Eugene, Oregon 7/21/22 400 43.18 Michael Johnson (Nike) Seville, Spain 8/26/99 600+ 1:12.81 Johnny Gray (Santa Monica TC) Santa Monica, California 5/24/86 800 1:42.34 Donavan Brazier (Nike Oregon Project) Doha, Qatar 10/01/19 1000 2:13.9 Rick Wohlhuter (UCTC) Oslo, Norway 7/30/74 1500 3:27.40 Bernard Lagat (Nike) Zürich, Switzerland 8/06/04 Mile 3:46.91 Alan Webb (Nike) Brasschaat, Belgium 7/21/07
Steeple 8:00.45 Evan Jager (Nike) St.-Denis, France 7/04/15 3000 7:29.00 Bernard Lagat (Nike) Rieti, Italy 8/29/10
With the super spikes and tracks it is still weak. Uganda superstar Joshua Cheptegei ran 7:31 to close out his 5000m world record of 12:35. JC averaged 7:33 pace for the entire 5000m. Let us get real here. This 3000m record is still weak for the Americans but it is inching closer to respectability. Props to Grant Fisher for taking it down a bit lower.
3000m records worldwide are weak.
This is mostly due to the few 3000m races that are run, as well as the lack of training specifically for it, as it is not an Olympic event, nor a World Championship event.
26:33 as a time and performance rules, so I don't think it's crazy to think 7:25.56 is a fair equivalent. I'm seeing 12:44.39 as the equivalent 5,000, and that's a lofty but attainable time for Grant. These numbers don't see far off to me. There have been a bunch of 7:24.9-27 indoors and outdoors in the 3000 of late. It's not close to Grant's best event. 7:28 is a good record, but if we get a 1500/5000 runner a la Teare/Hocker and they get into 3:29/12:55 shape they will be able to run 7:26 or 7:27 potentially. That requires either of those guys taking another big step forward and is no guarantee at all.
Ingebrigtsen is a 1500/5000 runner who got into 3:28.32/12:48.45 shape and he only managed 7:27.05.
I won't also rule out that 3000m is an in-between distance that produces few specialists, compared to the mile and 5000m, but I'm more inclined to believe it's just a question of too few opportunities producing too few attempts to run world record level fast.
Ingebrigtsen is a 1500/5000 runner who got into 3:28.32/12:48.45 shape and he only managed 7:27.05.
I won't also rule out that 3000m is an in-between distance that produces few specialists, compared to the mile and 5000m, but I'm more inclined to believe it's just a question of too few opportunities producing too few attempts to run world record level fast.
Well you pretty much nailed it on your second paragraph. Regarding your first, Ingebrigtsen has run how many 3ks since turning 17? Two. In that 7:27.05 he closed in ~2:27 flat/~57.low, and was just out-kicked by Kiplimo in the final 50m. He could have run faster that day, and he was still 19 years old. His 3:28.32/12:48.45 came the following season. 7:24 is the slowest Ingebrigtsen could run in a perfect 3k time trial. I have him pegged for more like 7:22.
I actually think I’m arguing for no reason with someone who agrees with me, but that’s ok too if I’m just elucidating your point.
Ingebrigtsen is a 1500/5000 runner who got into 3:28.32/12:48.45 shape and he only managed 7:27.05.
I won't also rule out that 3000m is an in-between distance that produces few specialists, compared to the mile and 5000m, but I'm more inclined to believe it's just a question of too few opportunities producing too few attempts to run world record level fast.
Well you pretty much nailed it on your second paragraph. Regarding your first, Ingebrigtsen has run how many 3ks since turning 17? Two. In that 7:27.05 he closed in ~2:27 flat/~57.low, and was just out-kicked by Kiplimo in the final 50m. He could have run faster that day, and he was still 19 years old. His 3:28.32/12:48.45 came the following season. 7:24 is the slowest Ingebrigtsen could run in a perfect 3k time trial. I have him pegged for more like 7:22.
I actually think I’m arguing for no reason with someone who agrees with me, but that’s ok too if I’m just elucidating your point.
No argument here -- In another thread I predicted a 7:22.2 performance based on estimated speed and endurance calculated from his 1500m and 5000m times, using a modified "4-second" rule from Horwill.
26:33 as a time and performance rules, so I don't think it's crazy to think 7:25.56 is a fair equivalent. I'm seeing 12:44.39 as the equivalent 5,000, and that's a lofty but attainable time for Grant. These numbers don't see far off to me. There have been a bunch of 7:24.9-27 indoors and outdoors in the 3000 of late. It's not close to Grant's best event. 7:28 is a good record, but if we get a 1500/5000 runner a la Teare/Hocker and they get into 3:29/12:55 shape they will be able to run 7:26 or 7:27 potentially. That requires either of those guys taking another big step forward and is no guarantee at all.
Ingebrigtsen is a 1500/5000 runner who got into 3:28.32/12:48.45 shape and he only managed 7:27.05.
I won't also rule out that 3000m is an in-between distance that produces few specialists, compared to the mile and 5000m, but I'm more inclined to believe it's just a question of too few opportunities producing too few attempts to run world record level fast.
There’s no such thing as a 3000m specialist. If someone is world-class at 1500m and 5000m, they will be the same at 3000m. Jakob’s primary distance is 1500m but he still managed to win the WC 5000m.
Ingebrigtsen is a 1500/5000 runner who got into 3:28.32/12:48.45 shape and he only managed 7:27.05.
I won't also rule out that 3000m is an in-between distance that produces few specialists, compared to the mile and 5000m, but I'm more inclined to believe it's just a question of too few opportunities producing too few attempts to run world record level fast.
There’s no such thing as a 3000m specialist. If someone is world-class at 1500m and 5000m, they will be the same at 3000m. Jakob’s primary distance is 1500m but he still managed to win the WC 5000m.
I would agree.
I didn't want to focus too much on Jakob in a thread about the US record, but was just responding to Thoughtleader's "we get a 1500/5000 runner a la Teare/Hocker and they get into 3:29/12:55 shape they will be able to run 7:26 or 7:27 potentially" to show that a faster runner (Jakob) in both 1500/5000 has only realized a 7:27.05.
There is something about 3000m times that are comparatively slow, indicating a significant unrealized potential in that event.
According to my speed/endurance math model (it's just a prediction model with assumptions -- keep that in mind): - Jakob already has 7:22.22 potential - Thoughtleader's 3:29/12:55 runner has 7:25.06 potential - Galen Rupp (3:34.15/26:44.36) had 7:27.67 potential (and 12:49.9 5000m potential! which is inline with VDOT) - Fisher (3:35.53/26:33.84) has a potential of 7:28.27
My model puts Fisher's 3:35.53/7:28.48/26:33.84 pretty much in line with each other. Unless he can demonstrate faster 400m or 1500m speed, Fisher's 7:28.48 is about his limit. It looks to me that his 26:33.84 demonstrates such strong endurance, that he is not capable of finding that much more speed.
Similar to JWH I don’t think we are truly arguing anything rekrunner. I think 7:28 is pretty darn good considering the rarity the 3k is run and the distance being less ideal for Fisher than a 15/5 runner. But I do think if Teare returns to top form and runs a DL 3,000 this record is on high alert.
To the person citing Ryan Hill’s 7:30.93 in old spikes, it’s worth noting that Hill was just plain awesome at the 3,000 that year. Winning Millrose, silver at World Indoors against a pretty good field. He ran 3:35 for 1500 that season and combine that with his 13:05 strength from 2015 and he was primed. It’s still 2.5 seconds slower (yes, spikes).
Yeah -- I'm just complementing the discussion with calculations from a spreadsheet.
Of course anytime an American runs an American record, it's pretty darn good because it's better than every American before him -- including USA record holder in both the 1500m and 5000m -- Bernard Lagat.
I guess Fisher can easily target the 5000m record (from his 10000m, Purdy says 12:41.76 and Daniels says 12:44.50), while your "a la Teare returning to form" runner could easily target the 3000m record (~7:25).
Well when I say it is weak, of course I should point to some guys who could have run faster. Alan Webb with his 3:46, 1:43, 27:34 abilities could have run 7:27 and in the spikes today no doubt he would have. Lagat in his absolute prime could have been a 7:23 guy. Matt Centrowitz is another guy with 1:44, 3:30 and 13:00 who could have run 7:27. Evan Jager for sure could have done sub 7:30. So while Fisher’s 7:28 is no joke it is not as fast as that record could be if it were contested more often and the really talented candidates had gone for it.
With the super spikes and tracks it is still weak. Uganda superstar Joshua Cheptegei ran 7:31 to close out his 5000m world record of 12:35. JC averaged 7:33 pace for the entire 5000m. Let us get real here. This 3000m record is still weak for the Americans but it is inching closer to respectability. Props to Grant Fisher for taking it down a bit lower.
3000m records worldwide are weak.
This is mostly due to the few 3000m races that are run, as well as the lack of training specifically for it, as it is not an Olympic event, nor a World Championship event.
Are you including Komen’s record? He ran back to back 3:40s!