Mixing Daniels 1500/3k with the 5k/10k plan

Hire a coach, man. You’re obviously trying to learn but Daniels + Lydiard is just the basics of training well.

Manchurian marathon wrote:

Hire a coach, man. You’re obviously trying to learn but Daniels + Lydiard is just the basics of training well.

Finding a coach that actually knows what he’s doing for 3k 5k and wants to put the effort in is hard to find.

Manchurian marathon wrote:

Hire a coach, man. You’re obviously trying to learn but Daniels + Lydiard is just the basics of training well.

Why is Daniels a beginning training program? I’m confused. I can’t find any good literature on 3k training. Went to workout today and was given a workout of 4 x 1200m at 3:50 seems way to fast and long of intervals for my first fast paced run back. Not sure why I’d be doing anything besides 200m at 3k pace 6 months out. So frustrating trying to find coaching where I feel like they actual know what they are doing

Let's talk privately and I will help you. Post your email or some way to contact you and I will.

I coach and have run sub-8 3k and sub 14 5k in multiple training programs so I know what works. I'm not gonna say it all on here and I can tell how bad you wanna improve with how much you've been posting about it so we should chat! If you don't want your real email on here then just make a burner account. But I don't want to reveal myself either as it is letsrun and people are vicious on here.

Masters_Runner11 wrote:

Why is Daniels a beginning training program? I’m confused. I can’t find any good literature on 3k training. Went to workout today and was given a workout of 4 x 1200m at 3:50 seems way to fast and long of intervals for my first fast paced run back. Not sure why I’d be doing anything besides 200m at 3k pace 6 months out. So frustrating trying to find coaching where I feel like they actual know what they are doing

Where did you get that workout from? That doesn't sound like a Daniels workout. I like Daniels' book and the concepts but I'm not a fan of his workouts, they just seem unnecessarily complex, with repeats of multiple distances mixed into the same workout. So I pretty much ignore his entire training plan because I wouldn't enjoy doing his workouts.

As for 3K training, I don't think you could go very wrong with doing mainly 5K training, but it might depend on whether you are a speed or endurance guy.

It was a workout the local group was doing and the coach gave me. I’m like that’s way to fast this early for that long of interval, I mean that’s my goal 3k race pace. I can’t do that on my first fast run since June and 10lbs over weight still. So I sat it out and watched

fast 3k pr wrote:

I coach and have run sub-8 3k and sub 14 5k in multiple training programs so I know what works. I'm not gonna say it all on here and I can tell how bad you wanna improve with how much you've been posting about it so we should chat! If you don't want your real email on here then just make a burner account. But I don't want to reveal myself either as it is letsrun and people are vicious on here.

Got it, yeah that workout makes no sense and I would drop that coach immediately.

I saw on another thread that you're targeting indoor masters in March? Is that still your plan? If so, whatever speed work you do now isn't all that important, but it's pretty clear that since you've refrained from speed since June and are a bit overweight, goal 3K pace isn't going to make sense now unless it's for short bursts.

Why not just do light speed work to get the legs moving, e.g. 10-12 * 45 seconds or so?

By the way, I'm in my late 40's and making a comeback in the mile/3K after a 15 year layoff. I don't try to run certain goal paces in training, I run exclusively off of perceived effort (e.g. mile pace, 3K pace, 5K pace) and it's working really well.

op, I think what you are looking to do is reasonable. learn the philosophies, try different programs, keep track of successes and failures. eventually you will know what works and hopefully understand why. at that point, you can start making your own programs.

no matter how much you learn, you can always come here for tips, and reference those useful books and articles you have found along the way.

Webbster wrote:

Got it, yeah that workout makes no sense and I would drop that coach immediately.

I saw on another thread that you're targeting indoor masters in March? Is that still your plan? If so, whatever speed work you do now isn't all that important, but it's pretty clear that since you've refrained from speed since June and are a bit overweight, goal 3K pace isn't going to make sense now unless it's for short bursts.

Why not just do light speed work to get the legs moving, e.g. 10-12 * 45 seconds or so?

By the way, I'm in my late 40's and making a comeback in the mile/3K after a 15 year layoff. I don't try to run certain goal paces in training, I run exclusively off of perceived effort (e.g. mile pace, 3K pace, 5K pace) and it's working really well.

Best part is I’m like “hey this workout seems way to fast for me to be doing for that for that duration 5 months out of race time and having just got my first 10 weeks of base miles in. The pace he gave was 4 x 1200m @ 78 a lap which is 9:45 3k pace. So said maybe I should start out doing like 12-15 x 200m at 39-40 seconds. He said oh you got to be careful not to get injured. I’m thinking to myself that’s the same pace you wanted me to do for 1200 but I am at risk only doing 200m at the same pace. I literally just sat and watched everyone else run today and felt entirely out of place. I have never felt so out of place at a group workout. 4 months ago that pace would have been no issue. I jus got back from the hamstring strain. My thinking was 1200m repeats would have been smarter to do them at more like 5:50-5:54 pace

Hell at this point I’m to the point I might just start doing a lot of hills and as many threshold intervals I can do a week not exceeding 20% of total mileage.

I mean I could do a mix of

~a lot of 400m at threshold or just below 20-25.

~ 800 x 12

~ 5-8 x 1K

~4-6 x 1 mile

So no more than 15 miles a week since mileage is 75

Just run them at a pace that doesn’t exceed 85-89% of max Heart rate. Breaking them up helps, or running them slower to keep that HR in the right area. Just do this till January.

It’s really frustrating trying to find literature. Daniels is for beginners, I keep getting told. I just don’t have the data to put a plan together myself. I’m very meticulous if I ever did get the correct workout structure I would be set building a plan too

I'm in a very similar position to you.

My local group runs too fast and the coach is a bit clueless imo.

The virtual coach I have is great, but I have to run hard quality workouts by myself which can be very difficult mentally to complete them.

I can't decide what I value more, the solid coaching or the group aspect. I'm considering running the group workout each week (despite it not being the best option) and then one other workout prescribed by my virtual coach later in the week as a solo effort.

I disagree with Daniels being for beginners.

Didn't someone recommend the book The Self Coached Runner II in your other thread? I think that might be what you want. It's old school, but offers very specific training plans and the times you should run them in, after you've done base training.

Webbster wrote:

Didn't someone recommend the book The Self Coached Runner II in your other thread? I think that might be what you want. It's old school, but offers very specific training plans and the times you should run them in, after you've done base training.

Not in my previous one that I know of.

I guess once again I ask if your racing 3k and 5k which workout plan would you use.

A)1500/3k

B5k/10k

C)5k/10k till the final 6 weeks then go to 1500/3k

Masters_Runner11 wrote:

I guess once again I ask if your racing 3k and 5k which workout plan would you use.

A)1500/3k

B5k/10k

C)5k/10k till the final 6 weeks then go to 1500/3k

I don't know any of your PRs, especially your speed. I think option B:5k/10k could work. But, I'd would actually go with option D:1500/5k, here's why; the 1500 part of the training would give you the speed needed to run fast 3ks and would also allow you to close your 5ks at a faster pace. Then the 5k part of the training would give you the endurance needed to run solid/fast 5ks. At the end of your season, you should be able to easily transition from the 1500/5k to the 5k/10k training plan.

Masters_Runner11 wrote:

fast 3k pr wrote:

I coach and have run sub-8 3k and sub 14 5k in multiple training programs so I know what works. I'm not gonna say it all on here and I can tell how bad you wanna improve with how much you've been posting about it so we should chat! If you don't want your real email on here then just make a burner account. But I don't want to reveal myself either as it is letsrun and people are vicious on here.

Durant_runner11@outlook.com

Hey bro, sending you some dick pics

Have you seen the Swedish JS coach here on the boards? He's actually a very good coach even if his stalkers try to blacken him. He coached me just two months and I improved from 16.30 to 15:37 at 5 k! You get in contact by email,

magic@coachjs.se